Note: This is a copy and paste re-entry from what I had placed on the blog, “By Common Consent” in the thread under Margaret Young’s article To The Pastor: I had placed this on their blog yesterday and was notified by Steve in the thread that it was too long. Looking on what I wrote, I realize this is more than just a quick comment and more in the category of a lengthy, serious post (and I am also learning what are the rules for each LDS blog). Secondly, when I mentioned this to my wife, Kristie, she noticed the poor choice of my words in my initial Evangel Conversation blurb, “I appreciate the blog, By Common Consent, for providing the platform.” She told me, “Todd, some could take this to mean you are sarcastic or either in the other direction that you have had prior communication and that the BCC administration is actually inviting you to bring forth your message to their readership.” So, you see what happens when I don’t have my sweet wife editing anything that I write. But thankfully, I see that Margaret Young has given me invitation once again to reshare my thoughts. Well, here goes. And please, any LDS friends can interact with what I am sharing. (I once made the mistake in a past HI4LDS entry by limiting the conversation only to Blake Ostler, revealing my own fears. But he was kind to interact even in his misgivings.)
Background Thoughts
Ok, Bruce and Margaret, back again today. Please bear with me on this long commentary. It was a stiff and sore night for me, beginning yesterday evening till this morning. Let me briefly explain. Back in March, my wife and I were in Turkey (you know, home of all those early, orthodox, controversial ecumenical councils and the very ideas we debate today in the intermountain West. Of course, if I was truly a neo-platonic philosopher, I would have converted to the Church of Rome as ETS president, Francis Beckwith, has grievously just done.) On March 19, Kristie and I flew into central Anatolia, Kayseri to be exact, and after a week of roaming, exploring, and learning in areas around ancient Lystra, Derbe, Pisidian Antioch, and then down along the coast, we ended up in Izmir, over on the Aegean Sea. On March 26, our return route took us from Izmir to Istanbul to NYC. Short trip. But it is definitely the travel experiences that take a student way beyond the first chapter in any kind of learning (as you both might well attest.) So in connection to our trip, for the first time yesterday evening, I read to my church family “A letter to the Global Church from The Protestant Church of Smyrna” reported by Darlene N. Bocek (24 April 2007) after personally reading it in the late afternoon. Maybe you have heard the news. On April 18, 2007, three Christian men were brutally tortured and killed in Malatya, east of Kayseri. I couldn’t help but weep last night before corporate prayer together with my church family. I wish this morning I could be in Turkey with the Turkish brothers and sisters (true heroes in my book for 2007).
I share with you this first paragraph to provide context and succor your empathy if I might sound emotionally charged in my conversation today. Fundamentalist Islam charges Fundamentalist Christianity in the West as blindly polytheistic. Of course, this is ludicrous. Yet in their worship of their one true god, Allah, these youths, members of a local tarikat, did unspeakable things two and half weeks ago to the men they considered infidels.
I find the contrast so massively unmistakable. A Christian missionary will fervently disagree with his or her theological opponents by declaring absolute propositions (contra to American post-modern evangelicalism sweeping our country) but love, serve, and die for the same people that they might see Christ. Unfortunately, I don’t know if in religious, scholarly dialogues today in America, the distinction is made between an “Anti” who would kill his opponent compared to an “Anti” who would lay down his physical life in death that the other might really see the Christ. Such discussion is too messy, too complicated, and too irrational for intellects.
Now in my wandering introduction, let me try to land my plane of racing thoughts on to a runway. Anti-Mormons who only attack and mock—this is one story continually exploited. Anti-Mormons who would lay down their lives for their neighbors, well, I find this strangely supernatural and a phenomenon that could be acknowledged more than the trickle publicly shared. The question is ponderous. How can a heart revolt so strongly against / vehemently oppose the religious ideas of another (who also speaks of Jesus Christ) and yet sacrifice his own life for the same person? I think this delicate, extraordinary balance (absolutely a work of the Spirit) happens when Christ is everything in the heart.
This is all just a little backdrop from my heart to BCC when considering what Margaret writes: My question to you is this (and I hope it’s not offensive; I don’t intend it to be): I am a Mormon woman who loves Jesus Christ. Would you, as a pastor of another faith, deny me entrance to the feast because you felt I was overdressed?
A Question in Return to a Question
To answer with an affirmative, I risk the anger of Margaret’s children and the alienation from the LDS readership of BCC. Not too fun at all. To answer in the negative, I risk compromising the very heart convictions that the Spirit has testified to my heart about the Person and Work of the glorious Lord Jesus Christ revealed in scripture. The question is sobering. It is sort of like (for me) asking Margaret, “I am a Christian man who loves Jesus Christ. Would you, as a college teacher in the Mormon faith, deny me instant access to the highest of celestial glory where my Savior abides because I categorically reject this concept of the LDS priesthood authority, an orthopraxy so crucial to exaltation?”
Incidentally, the talk of “priesthood authority” reminds me of a story several years ago (probably more like six or seven). I was with a few friends, from back East, down at Temple Square. At the very beginning of our Temple tour, I identified who I was, the pastor of Berean Baptist Church in Idaho Falls. I listened carefully to each segment in the tour, but of course, I politely verbalized questions. One of the “LDS sisters” kindly listened. But the spunky “sister” who led, told me flat out, “It is not your position to question. You do not carry the proper priesthood authority. This tour is over.” She stuck out her hand. I shook it (but at the same time, I had to pick up my jaw off the sidewalk next to the colored tulips J ). On that day, I learned in absolute terms from a young missionary gal half my height: how central, how crucial, how fundamental Church priesthood authority is to religious life. Honestly, I wanted to sincerely question this young zealous missionary what really is the purpose and dynamics of a N.T. priest and secondly to discuss what an O.T. priest pictured in the whole plan of God’s salvation for man and thirdly to overthrow the whole concept of male patriarchal priesthood. No wonder this girl (not from overseas like most missionaries at the Square) was ready to throw me outside the gates. In LDS eyes, I am the outsider to the feast in celestial glory until I eventually bow my knee and submit to LDS priesthood authority.
An Answer to Proper Dress and Overdress
Margaret, no matter what people label themselves: Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, or whatever; they are completely in the wrong wedding clothes if they “have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God” (Rom. 10:1-4). I think Paul, one of the first apostles of the church, is telling us it is impossible for us to dress ourselves. We need God to clothe us through the work of the Son, the only way. And then Christians every day need to put on righteousness, that is believe by faith every day what they are in union with Christ, joint-heirs with Him. As a joint-heir, it is not that I become a god; it is now that I have God. Wow. Right now, I am by far greater, richer, happier than any wealthy heir in Park City or Jackson Hole or Sun Valley. I have all of God, living water springing up, leaping, and overflowing within me. I shall never thirst again, stretching all the way into the ages ahead. No bulldozer shall ever be able to plug the spring.
Speaking of “overdress”, yes, we are spiritually drowning in America because of all the religious physical attachments. I speak only of my personal observation in Southeastern Idaho but the good, physical gifts of God are more the center of focus than God.
In Rexburg, Idaho, one of the most conservative towns in America, one might be able to see just by the physical layout how some might be possessed by earthly, physical possessions. The new temple is being built on the hill. The closer you live to the temple, the higher you are on the hill, and like a sore thumb, the bigger the new houses. But does a new house satisfy the heart? I desire to point to the One who is the eternal abode far beyond an earthly dream home.
The Church Family Proclamation hangs in most homes in the neighborhoods. The words, “Families Are Forever,” are stenciled on wood plaques. But does a spouse satisfy the heart? I desire to hang a plaque on the wall speaking of the One who will be for me both a protective father and a nourishing mother throughout the ages. And where my wife and I both fail each other in our earthly picture, Christ is the ultimate Bridegroom.
People hang out in cars alongside the road for the new temple being finished in Rexburg. They sit. They talk. They take pictures. The temple in Idaho Falls is busy night and day. But isn’t a physical temple only a picture? How many temples are needed (and millions of dollars spent on physical building material) to satisfy Church restlessness? How many works must be done in a temple before the heart is ultimately assured? Let us cry out from the rooftops and streets the real “meeting place between the infinite and finite.”
All the good and wonderful things of this life – nice homes, shiny cars, church buildings, church service, church education, food, drink, rest, leisure, and family, etc. No object or program or creature on this beautiful green earth can ultimately fill the circle. Try it and you will be frustrated (Ecclesiastes). Hey, as one of the puritans use to say. “You can’t fill a circle with a triangle. They do not geometrically correspond.” Only the Triune God can satisfy ultimately human thirst.
Bruce and Margaret, my idea of a heavenly eternal feast is when I am a perfect slave to Jesus Christ forever, when I am “like Christ,” every thought of my mind, every decision of my will, and every emotion of my heart is all in complete conformity to the Lord of all. I long for heaven because it is then everything that I think, everything that I say, everything that I do – it will all be perfect in how I live as Christ’s bride forever. Is this your heart hunger, too? Look how many relationships that the Samaritan woman had. But she at Jacob’s well (as well as I in the twentieth century) entered into a new relationship with a Bridegroom that supersedes all other physical relationships. God is everything, the center of all circles. Jesus came down from heaven to show us that.
And now I have typed three pages. Guys, I didn’t mean to go so long. It is just hard to discuss such important life questions with only small, catchy bloggerbytes.
Jesus in Idaho Falls 
Todd, you’re missing a closing em tag somewhere in the first line or two of this post!
Dave, I am an idiot when it comes to computers. I would flunk any tests that you would give me on solo blogging. 🙂
Chris L. up in Ashton fixes all my bloopers and puts these beautiful pictures of Southeastern Idaho on HI4LDS.
Thanks Chris.
Okay, this will make you feel much better. I was trying to cut and paste my initial response to you and I can’t for the life of me figure out how to do it. When I try to highlight it on BCC (so I can move it here), the whole blogpost gets highlighted. Do you have someone there who knows how to do it?
Here you go.
Post 101 from “By Common Consent”
Margaret Young
Todd–This will be the first of other responses. I’ve looked up your church website, so I know right where you are, and I’ve passed your church many times. (Grandma and Grandpa lived on 12th Street for years. And yes, you betcha, I’m one of the famous Grobergs.)
You give much to ponder. For now, I’m going to find common ground and simply say that I share your concern with “overdress” in regards to physical attachments. I’m not talking about someone’s wedding band or another’s cross, or even a temple, but our attachment to THINGS, things which do burden us and which must ultimately be shed. My concern with this issue was so real to me that I took my children to Guatemala last summer so that they could experience what I did many years ago: the unencumbered life and the joy of those who aren’t constantly comparing cars and houses; the sociality that I found there, the openness. Indeed, it was transformative for them, and for me (and Bruce also joined us for awhile and felt the spirit of the place).
But of course, we returned to Utah, to our carpeted home, our sofa, piano, furnished bedrooms. We were temporary visitors in Guatemala, but we were always a plane ride away from our familiar luxury.
When Bruce and I read _The End of the Spear_ and then bought the documentary made by Steven Saint and others about evangelical missionaries who were killed in the jungles of Ecuador, and whose families chose to stay and live among the people who had killed their loved ones and bring them to Jesus Christ, it made me long to return to that other world I know and love. It was actually hard for me to read the book because it awoke such yearning in me to be stripped of everything but the most essential–and yes, our most important “clothing” is our relationship to our Savior, who provides the ultimate priesthood robe and mercifully covers us.
Let me say that I have been troubled when some of my Mormon friends have spoken ill of Evangelical Christians. I have heard fellow Mormons say things like, “Evangelicals believe that all they have to do is confess Christ and it doesn’t matter what else they do in life.” My reaction has been, “You must know different Evangelicals than I do, because every devoted Born-Again Christian I have known has worn their religion beautifully. Their conversion was not a one-day event, but a life change, which informs everything they do.”
All of us in different faiths are very capable of reducing others to quick and cheap summaries. I was glad to see that your website sought not to do that with the LDS faith, that there was even a post titled “We need to apologize.” I’m not playing the victimized Mormon here, because obviously we are capable of some awful behavior–such as you experienced at Temple Square.
I would hope we would stand up for each other and be willing to kneel beside one another. I’ll use a friend’s experience to express this.
This friend became very ill while visiting his in-laws in California, and was hospitalized for months. Nurses attended him daily, and they became very close. When he was about to be released, one of the nurses said, “I feel like I need to confess one thing. I’m the enemy. I’m a Seventh-Day Adventist.” My friend said, “Oh no, you’re not the enemy. We’re on the same team. Satan is the enemy.”
And that’s all I have time for right now. I’ll continue pondering and respond further later.
Thank you, Christopher!
Margaret,
A number of things this morning . . .
You can tell what a dandy computer guru I am by looking at our church website. I dearly appreciate one of the sisters who posts information on our “one-pager.” But our church family knows that I will never produce (on my own accord) any colossal achievement in website design. Not too long ago, BCC had a link to top church websites in the country. I laughed at how far I fall short.
Secondly, I noticed your displeasure in “attachment to THINGS”. It certainly is a struggle for us Americans. I need prayer. But as you already suspect, I would co-insert PEOPLE in the same phrase. It is not as politically correct, but I still have the urgent words of an ancient prophet still ringing in my ears. Four months ago, the Spirit through Isaiah was convicting, speaking necessary words to me and to those within our church family, “Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?” Man depends on breath. Does God?
Go ahead and plug my nostrils. In about 39 seconds (never set any under-water records), I would be subdued by your action, frantically thinking, “Mercy Margaret!!! Please! I need some air!” Therefore, my wife can’t be “attached” to me for her ultimate help. It would be as foolish for her to cling to me for her exaltation as it would be to derive efficacious support from her inward self. We are both utterly air and God dependent.
Thirdly, as far as The End of the Spear, it is a dynamite book. You have brought to me “common ground”. I raved over Saint’s life sketch of grace in a past review. In fact, one of the five men who died fifty years ago proved instrumental for my pursuing an undergrad degree in cross-cultural Christian missions. Those men were absolute fools. May I be the same for the Christ.
Also, Margaret you wrote about “every devoted Born-Again Christian”: Their conversion was not a one-day event, but a life change, which informs everything they do. When you have a moment, share with me more on this. My heart vibrates in tune with what William Wilberforce called “The Great Change,” the pivotal chapter of his life.
Last, I do respect that young gal at the Square years ago. She squared her shoulders in front of me and honestly shared the very thoughts in her mind. She was wrong (dead wrong), but her candor was miles ahead of the typical American, slumbering from day to day in leisure and looking for the applause of others.
Actually, the last paragraph can’t be the conclusion for my comments. May the Lord keep me from treating you Margaret, Bruce, your family, your friends, or any of the LDS in the corridor with “quick and cheap summaries”. I will try to ask for your forgiveness every time I do. I am in dead earnest about this, my new friend. And yet even more so, as I live and breathe, I will with all my might try to counter with love every quick and cheap summary of the Lord Jesus Christ. For too long, I have been in sort of a low-key mode, twiddling my thumbs, sitting rather quietly to my shame. I have resolved to do this no more in I.F. The Savior is all. All in all.
“Satan is the enemy.” Verily. I have a deep, holy hatred for the sneaky jerk in all the ways he cloaks himself. I am thrilled that the active days for this creature are numbered in Yahweh’s sovereign kingdom. Soon it will be solitary confinement for the big boy.
Thinking of heart issues . . .
Well, showing my computer skills at their worst, I just composed an entire post and then lost it.
So, reconstructing briefly:
My father introduced me to the story of the Evangelical missionaries and the Waorani people of Ecuador many years ago, and I recognized it when I read _the End of the Spear_. I also recommend the remarkable documentary about the murder of the missionaries and what followed it, called _Beyond the Gates of Splendor_.
Now, I need to better understand what you’re saying.
You said: “I noticed your displeasure in “attachment to THINGS”… [A]s you already suspect, I would co-insert PEOPLE in the same phrase…”
I didn’t suspect that, so I would like a little more clarification. Surely we come unto Christ independently, not held up by a pastor or a spouse. But just as surely, Christ enlivens and vitalizes all of our human relationships, with marriage being (as I see it) a symbol of our fidelity to Him as well as the hardest course in patience we’ll ever take. (Actually, my teenagers have been even better workshop instructors in that particular virtue than my husband has.)
I love the way C.S. Lewis portrayed the most unhealthy human bond in _The Great Divorce_, where a mother presumes that she can somehow possess her son, and is willing to take him to hell with her rather than lose him to Heaven. Lewis commented on another occasion, “[This woman] lives for her children. You can see it in the hunted expressions on their faces.” It is a great human foible to gauge our success or failure on the success or failure of our children–or of our ancestors. (“God is able out of these stones to raise children of Abraham.”) All of that must be dropped as we approach true religion, where we allow ourselves to be defined by the Savior.
On another issue–I do hope you don’t ever become so bold that you cease to be courteous and thoughtful. I do not respect that young woman at Temple Square who squared her shoulders and told you what she thought of you. She was rude. I’m afraid that many take pride in being “bold” and justify discourtesy with words like, “I say what I think.” Obviously, there are times for cleansing the temple, but each of us who claims to be Christian should certainly seek reasons to include rather than excuses to not.
I have a friend who is a retired AME pastor. I’ll close this post with his words: “We are still in that animal mode of existence, evolving out of the self. For instance, if somebody were to ask, ‘Where are you from?’ here in America, you might say, ‘California’, etc. If we were to go to Europe and hear, ‘Where are you from’, we’d answer, ‘America, U.S.’ If we go to Mars, we’d say, ‘I’m from Earth–unless you’re spaced out, of course…Under the skin, all people are kin.'”
That’s all I’ll write for now. Obviously, I’m not looking for debate but bridges.
Margaret, I empathize with your first sentence. I have done it countless times and almost given up blogging.
Listen. Robert C. over at the blog, Feasting on the Word, got me thinking about Isaiah trees.
Let me try to compose a small, personal story, and get back with you tomorrow (hopefully without deleting it). I love stories, and I know you do too. Just be patient with my English skills. 🙂
Margaret, I am not trying to ignore you. But elsewhere in bloggernacle someone has commented, “Get me outta this tree.” And then I noticed you posting about Ted Whiters.
I responded first to what I am imagining a play on my own Hebrew name, Elon Wood. And in that comment, I was also inquiring more about your quote. I would like to read the book sometime because I did a good deal of mission work in Kenya, East Africa.
Alas, my comment was deleted (now, I know where I am not welcome.)
I would like to write a little essay on the trees of Isaiah sometime. My family verse is Isaiah 61:3.
When I finish it, I will privately email you sometime. I would be happy for your response. Take care, friend.
Hi Todd. The Ted Whiters’ quote was from an interview. He is one of MANY we are including in our documentary. I have co-authored several books on Blacks in the LDS religion, but this is a documentary, not a book.
I spent all of yesterday editing with the other members of our documentary staff, and so did not visit any blogs. I did not see your comment. And I am sorry it was deleted and that you feel unwelcome at BCC. I must admit, though, that I was disturbed by the implications of the question in another of your postings. You asked “Does the LDS Church believe they [Mormons] will possess male and female slaves during a future millennium?”
My instant response was, “Are you kidding?” Your question felt tantamount to asking a Jewish person if they really do sacrifice Christian children during their festivals. It indicates such a fundamental misunderstanding of Mormonism and even a vilification of Latter-day Saints that I chose not to even respond.
I cherish my friends of various faiths. Among them are several pastors. I am so grateful that they respect me, and they certainly know I respect them. I would be happy to read your essay on the trees of Isaiah. It sounds extremely interesting. But to be perfectly honest, I’m not sure how you perceive me since I am LDS, and I’m not really sure I can trust you. If you have an agenda of showing me where Mormonism is wrong, or of moving me away from my faith, then we won’t be able to have much more conversation.
The pastors who have become my friends often give me precious counsel and great insights. We always meet on common ground, which is the ground wetted by Jesus’ blood. We hold hands when we pray. Are you that kind of a pastor too? I would hope so.
Margaret, concerning BCC, it might have just been a malfunction in the submit comment button. Who knows. Let me mull over your comment (#10) this weekend in order to provide something thoughtful rather than a quick response.
I would like to see the documentary. When will it be aired?
Another conservative Christian website posted my book review on the life of William Wilberforce. If you are interested, check here for a quick perusal on this evangelical abolitionist.
Margaret, I hope you had a nice Mother’s Day, yesterday. Mothers are indeed a special work of God. I would be honored someday in meeting your whole crew, and at the same time I would enjoy introducing you to my family: Kristie – my wife, Joshua – 11, Hannah – 8, Mariah – 7, and Micaiah – 5. My wife was born in Idaho Falls (We are both home-grown spuds). In high school, I fell madly in love with her. Come May 30th, it will be 15 years of marriage to this beautiful gal.
And now to interact with a few of your thoughts:
My instant response was, “Are you kidding?”
I like the authenticity of this statement, because that was exactly my initial response to the authors of this classic LDS commentary on Isaiah. You see, as a premillennialist in my eschatology, I envision yet in the future (could be very near) a literal, national, political people of blood-related Jews believing in the N.T. Jesus at the Messiah’s return. In a complete reversal of their past bondage, I see this Jewish country possessing servants and handmaids (Isaiah 14:2). That is why I was shocked in how the authors (Don Parry, et al.) seem to mesh together a LDS political and church eschatological entity. I am discovering some things that I have never heard before, Margaret. You need to read fully this particular section in the commentary, Understanding Isaiah, and please tell me how it would be impossible for an outsider like me to innocently blurt out such questions.
“Ugly Mahana” says I am just making mountains out molehills. No, I am trying to understand how LDS would interpret millennium passages in Isaiah. And I don’t think I am imagining the suggestions (or hints) by current LDS authors in their interpretations of Isaiah texts for both slavery and polygamy in the millennium. As far as reading about Jewish people sacrificing Christian children, I haven’t read anything about this. But I have read some awful things that Israelite kings in the OT did to their own children in worship to the polytheistic, Canaanite gods.
In confession to you, in future posts on HI4LDS, I would like to explore the Book of Mormon and KJV’s use of Lucifer (Isa. 14:12), a Latinism (Vulgate), and also the congregation of gods (Isa. 14:13). On the latter theme, BYU prof. Don Parry has produced a whole new fresh translation on Isaiah (FARMS) accentuating this. This is by far a bigger heart issue than millennial slavery.
. . . I’m not really sure I can trust you.
Margaret, you need to question everything that I preach and everything that I write on HI4LDS. I make no claims of being an inspired preacher. You need to be a Berean (Acts 17:11). Everything that I say must be compared directly with Scripture. The process of anakrino requires you to examine, to sift up and down, and to make careful and exact research as in legal processes. But most people in the intermountain west are just not that eager. As a result, many people struggle with discernment, which produces more fear.
If you have an agenda of showing me where Mormonism is wrong, or of moving me away from my faith, then we won’t be able to have much more conversation.
As a man, I don’t understand this comment. I am sure, Margaret, my wife Kristie would. But from my perspective, I have many LDS friends who do have an agenda to add, to move me beyond my historical, evangelical faith (in fact, I have Christian Catholics, liberals, emergents, self-esteemers, and mass marketers, etc. and etc. who are all seeking to do the same thing). But as my LDS friends seek to persuade me, I don’t cut off the conversation or scrutiny of my doctrine, my life, and even my emotional responses in Ammon, Idaho. When the LDS patriarchal, Melchizedek high priest (in charge of the Sunday School curriculum for the particular ward where my church building sits) jokingly declares, “Todd, when are you going to leave those _______ Baptists and come join the one true Church?!” I still converse with him. And I pray for his faltering, physical health as an older man.
I can’t move anyone’s heart in any of the various religions out there. Only God can.
We hold hands when we pray. Are you that kind of a pastor too?
If you and Bruce lived next door to Kristie and me, I would hold your hand in prayer. If Bruce was in the hospital for a medical emergency, my wife and I would hold your hands. I would respectfully listen to your prayers and then I would pray. I would have my whole church family lovingly pray for you both.
But before I would acknowledge that we are on the same page, with hearts beating as one in understanding the nature of God and the sufficiency of Jesus’ blood for ultimate salvation, I need to ask more questions.
These are very good and thought-provoking responses, Todd. Thank you for taking the time to write them.
The absurd hypothetical question “Do you sacrifice Christian children for your festivals” alluded to the horrific lies spread about Jews in pre-nazi Europe, some of them found in _Protocols of the Elders of Israel_.
I agree fully with you that questioning is a good thing, and I join you in testifying that fear is not of God. One of my most frequently repeated scriptures is “For God hath not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.”
Thank you for that last paragraph. That says so much about who you are–and it is a GOOD statement.
I wonder if ANYONE is really “on the same page” in their understanding of the nature of God and the sufficiency of Jesus’ blood for salvation. We assume so much about what others believe, and tend to invent their motivations and their theology in our imaginations. I doubt I could even tell you the dimensions of my husband’s faith, because it is HIS faith, not mine. And he could not perfectly describe what I believe or what I don’t, despite the fact that we have been married for over twenty years. (Today is our anniversary.) I know he loves Jesus Christ. He knows that I do as well. But do we both see Jesus the same way? I doubt it. I suspect that his mind conjures a different picture than mine does. And our understanding of scriptural truths, filtered through our individual life experiences, will not be identical.
I would not presume to tell you what members of my ward, or even my relatives who live a stone’s throw from you, believe in detail. I would differ with many members of my ward in what I personally believe, if my beliefs could be summed up in a sort of checklist. But of course, they can’t. My life reflects what I believe, regardless of what kind of catechism or articles of faith I might recite. But I claim sisterhood/brotherhood with anyone who chooses Christ. I proclaim Christ. I rejoice in Christ. And I happily join others of any faith who would sing the hymns of praise with me.
I have been disappointed when attending “non-denominational” churches to find copies of _The Godmakers_ in their bookstores, or to hear the minister speak against Mormonism in his sermons. (Yes, this has happened in non-LDS churches I have attended. I found it not only disconcerting but ungodly.)
I want to honor the sacred spaces anyone chooses which bring them closer to the Savior. It saddens me when the sacred places I have chosen are mocked. Incidentally, I am very familiar with anti-Mormon material, but I find no power in it because it lacks love. It is full of what my son would call “negative energy.”
And to your other question–about the documentary. Thank you for asking. I am slow responding because I’ve been putting in many hours a day with the editing staff on the documentary. We are planning to debut a trailer at the Mormon Historical Association next week. We will enter the documentary in festivals around Christmas time, and will likely do a limited theatrical release in June of 2008.
“For God hath not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.”
WONDERFUL VERSE! Margaret, it is not a mere coincidence that you have mentioned these words by Paul. The verse brought a rush of memories, awakening the horrors of my past life. I use to be paralyzed by fear. I had no assurance of an absolute right standing before God. The more I chased after spiritual confidence, the more I became brittle tumbleweed rolling along in stupefied diffidence. In hot gusts (the worst times were early morning or late evening) my thoughts tormented my heart, driving and spinning me this way and that. I could find no cool suave, desperate as I was. Physically, I was developing ulcers.
Oh, I tried everything. Basically, I was screaming inside for some sense of righteous guarantee. So I intensified my efforts in reading Scriptures. I studied testimonies of those strong in their faith (actually, this made me more miserable). I cried out to God repeatedly for release from my inward fright. I went repeatedly to religious leaders who unfortunately either advised me to verbalize more prayers of confession or encouraged me to muster stronger faith. Consumed and cowering in wretched timidity, I fluttered in a thousand different directions, the antithesis of a “sound mind”. I hated life, spiritually sweltering like the Dead Sea.
Some are perhaps not so stubborn. I was. It was only when I abandoned my focus on perfecting my prayers and my faith before God—acknowledging impotence—that God granted escape from my religious prison. I personally experienced the springs and waterfalls and shady caves of David’s Engedi in the desert (Romans 3:21-26). God completely reoriented my thinking. The power and assurance came not through the strength of my faith and my righteous prayers but in the object of my faith—Jesus Christ, the Lord of all. As the passage follows in II Timothy 1, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” Thanks for letting me share. For me, the verse triggers a whole number of heart issues.
I wonder if ANYONE is really “on the same page” in their understanding of the nature of God and the sufficiency of Jesus’ blood for salvation.
Not that I understand all who the Triune God is in essence and the divine work that is done, but we surely must be in agreement over the fundamental propositional statements about who God is in Scripture. And shouldn’t we be on the same page over such heart issue phrases: “righteousness of God without the law”, “justified freely by his grace,” and “a propitiation through faith in his blood,” etc.?
(Urging you to do the same of me) Margaret, I would desire to evaluate you more than just by what kind acts you show me through your life. Claiming to love and serve Jesus Christ, the polygamist man, Samuel Fischer, highlighted several days ago in the Salt Lake Tribune, asked the community in a small town in Texas to judge him by his life. But I do not fault some of the community for carefully critiquing this man in a checklist for his doctrinal beliefs as well. One’s peculiar orthodoxy does influence one’s atypical orthopraxy.
In only one scriptural sampling, the apostle Paul pens a checklist, proclaiming at least a dozen key truths in salvation. In Romans 3, he longs for Jews and Gentiles to be on the same page with him on the clear meaning of 1) all under sin [arguing from a whole slew of passages in the OT] 2) guilty before God 3) knowledge of sin 4) righteousness 5) faith 6) justification without a cause 7) grace 8.) redemption 9) propitiation 10) Christ’s blood 11) remission of sins and 12) forbearance.
Actually, Paul’s pattern under the Spirit’s influence (Romans, Ephesians, etc.) is usually examining what you know and believe before any exhortation on what the Christian is to do.
I have been disappointed . . . to hear the minister speak against Mormonism in his sermons. . . . I found it not only disconcerting but ungodly.
Margaret, for me to find common ground on this, you need to sink my teeth into some Scriptural based reasons for why you would think this “ungodly”. First, would you and/or your bishop speak out against such an idea, for instance, of your son forsaking Mormonism altogether and marrying one of the Baptist girls in our church family? Secondly, as my conscience is captive to Scripture, should I not (I am not talking about speech that incites sinful lies and hate or provokes physical violence) kindly speak out against any individual’s teaching or any religion that is infringing upon the truths of Christ that has set my heart and other hearts free? If I was living down in the Bible belt of the South, my blog would probably be called “Heart Issues for Baptists”. If I lived up in the northeast corner of America like Maine, it would be entitled “Heart Issues for Catholics”. But it should always be “speaking the truth in love.” If there is no love, it is all just tinkling brass and clanging symbols.
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By the way, when your documentary arrives for the public, I will watch it.
And guess what book I picked up the other day to read? Anytime, Anywhere (2006) by John H. Groberg. When I am finished reading it, I will place a book review on HI4LDS.
Todd–a very brief answer. Actually, one of my sons HAS forsaken Mormonism. His choices do not affect my love for him. I recognize that he is on a journey which is his to take, not mine. He knows who I am and who we as a family are. I would certainly NOT speak out against him marrying a Baptist girl, should he choose to do it–and absolutely not publicly. If my bishop were to humiliate him in such a way, I would have a talk with my bishop. Bruce and I have taught him the gospel. We respect his right to explore faith. Right now, he is interested in Eastern philosophies. I expect that he will explore various faith avenues. I hope he will return to the paths he has been shown, but because I believe in eternal possibility and in the efficacy of the atonement beyond mortality, I do not lose hope. I believe that my son will bow his knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ, but I set no timetable for that. I consider that my call is to love him and to provide a refuge for him at all times. If I could undo anything I did as his mother, it would be the times I criticized him and showed him a spirit of anger and judgment rather than love.
My own faith would accord more with scriptures in James than with those you cite, which have various interpretations. But I come back to the idea that it is not mine to judge another’s faith choices. Such an act presumes far too much and invites pride. The command which God has given me is to love. That is what’s essential. It is a violation of my conscience to dignify someone’s speaking disrespectfully of another’s religion. I hope others would also respect my faith–or at least acknowledge that they might not actually know just what I believe simply because they have learned some tenets of orthodox Mormonism.
And you’re ahead of me in your reading (or at least your book purchases). I have read two of my uncle’s books, but not this third one.
That’s all I have time for now.
Margaret, I am back after a wonderful weekend. I did read your post last Friday. Concerning your family . . . I didn’t realize this. Thanks.
I hope you don’t mind, but this weekend, I prayed often for your son, precious to you and Bruce. I prayed that your boy would taste and see that the Lord is good.
Eastern philosophies . . . my sister and brother-in-law spent a summer trekking in Nepal. They have all kinds of stories.
I would like to meet your boy sometime, also you and Bruce.
Tomorrow, let me try to comment with some of my heart on post-mortem evangelism, James, conscience, and love itself. We are studying James on Sunday evenings. Last night, we looked at James 3:17. Margaret, I pray that God grants me daily that kind of wisdom from above.
Thank you, Todd.
It is lunchtime. I thought I would say hi.
My mind has been sunk deeply into the conversational threads of Jesus with the Samaritan woman in John 4. I marvel at the Savior. Whenever He speaks, He says it perfectly. He is kind, gentle, and patient. I am in awe.
So with all the thoughts bouncing in my simplistic brain, it seems that the Lord is zeroing in on two main themes for this woman: conviction of sin and true worship. This past weekend, the Spirit had stopped me in John 4:20-22. And I have been thinking of your heart felt statement: “It is a violation of my conscience to dignify someone’s speaking disrespectfully of another’s religion.”
Also, I have had the Lord’s words ringing in my mind, “Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what.”
Jesus’ words are frank and to the point about false worship in the Samaritan religion. Samaritans had their scripture canon, and their interpretation on verses to back the reasons for their place of worship (Mt. Gerizim); but Jesus forcefully yet gently tells the woman that her ideas of worship are wrong.
Of course, the Lord is omniscient. He knows every thought and motive of the heart, unlike me. At times (and I acutely remember some of these episodes), I have terribly misjudged heart motives of others, both family and friends. And every time, my conscience has made me miserable to where I have had to sincerely repent.
But even with my conscience, a tool that God has created and placed within me, there have been key events, Margaret, where my conscience has been off the mark because of my sinful nature (pride, fear, willful ignorance, and this short list could soon become very extensive). My inward warning lights were skewed. Sometimes my conscience has made me feeling guilty over an activity that really in the light of biblical truth it is not (or vice versa) condemned as sin. Therefore, how do I fix my faulty heart mechanisms? I constantly need to tweak and/or adjust my conscience to the brilliant light of God’s Word. In the process, God’s Spirit corrects and fine-tunes my conscience. In my fumbling and failings, I am thankful for this.
It is sinful to be disrespectful to another person made in God’s image; but it is also sinful to say nothing, to ignore, or to overlook false worship/religion of God under the guise of Christian love. I agree with you–love is essential. It is one of the Christian fundamentals that should pierce and cut through the dark hypocrisy hibernating or lashing out of control in Christian fundamentalism. Yet it is this love that not only places soothing balm on open wounds; but it beautifully questions, evaluates, analyzes, and passes judgment on visible doctrine or fruit that is detrimental, and then cuts the cancerous false religion right out of the heart.
The Lord Jesus is the only true Shepherd. I am just a fallible, earthy undershepherd, Margaret. But I long in my heart to see Christ’s love demonstrated through me to my family, to my church family, and to you and your family.
I will try to share thoughts on post-mortem evangelism and James, later.
[I can’t believe it. It snowed this morning in Idaho Falls. Almost tempted me to pull out my skis. Yet I know the best powder in America is in Utah.]
Todd–I’m sure you’re have some fascinating thoughts. I will need to leave blogging behind for awhile now. I am working very hard on the documentary, and my family and I are headed to California/Mexico this weekend.
Enjoy the snow.
Margaret, thanks for the interaction.
Today, no snow (too bad), but it is a beautiful blue-bird day in Southeastern Idaho.
As you might assume, I don’t see where scripture clearly teaches post-mortem evangelism. This explains some of my loving intensity, now, before we cross over on to other side of the veil.
As for the message of James, I think you are seeing some real action in the book, Margaret, that some segments of evangelicalism completely ignore. I think this is one of the reasons why Robert Millet enjoys reading John MacArthur’s stuff.
Let me close with this thought by a friend sent in an email this morning:
“It seems to me that although our good works are not meritorious (in any sense of the word) towards our final justification, our good works are, in some sense, a basis on which we are declared righteous at the final judgment. Not that our works merit anything from God, but that our post-conversion life of righteousness is the confirming evidence of our evangelical faith in Jesus the Savior.
“This seems to make sense of those passages in the Bible that speak about God separating the righteous from the wicked in the final judgment. I don’t believe that the words, ‘righteous’ and ‘wicked,’ in these passages should be understood exclusively as those who are forensically righteous or wicked. No, these people are genuinely righteous or wicked in their behavior and in their hearts.”
Take care, Margaret. Please have a safe trip with your family.
And I am sure, Lord willing, we will probably meet each other one of these days.
Thinking of heart issues . . .