56 comments

1. I am interacting with what Doug said here in his post (November 30, 2007) about Protestant ministers:

   God is said to have created man in his “image and likeness”. They claim this doesn’t mean in his physical likeness or image, but in some other undefinable sense.

2. Todd,

   I would like for him to provide authoritative LDS doctrine on Bibliology, Theology, Christology, Pneumatology, Anthropology, Harmartiology, Soteriology, Angelology, Ecclesiology, and Eschatology.

   Seriously, this is a joke, right?

3. Todd,

   I appreciate your comments here. This is a genuine difference between your church and mormonism, and it is good to have it discussed respectfully.

   Just to help me understand the question, please tell me if this rephrase is correct:

   You would like Doug Towers to compare the doctrine of being called by the laying on of hands to your friend’s command of theology.

4. Jacob, frankly, it is no joke between Doug and me. But perhaps I could nuance it better because probably no living LDS apostle today would give me authoritative doctrine (contra biblical apostles) because of the need for ongoing change to doctrine.

   So maybe, I could say, I would invite Doug to provide for me his authoritative LDS personal revelation on Bibliology, Theology, Christology, Pneumatology, Anthropology, Harmartiology, Soteriology, Angelology, Ecclesiology, and Eschatology. Knowing that he does not speak for General LDS Authorities.

   I am keenly curious, and I am hoping that Doug is game for this.

   And yes, Mahana, I do want to know how significant authoritative doctrine is in the process of being an ordained LDS Melchizedek High Priest (which I assume this to be a position Doug holds.)

5. Todd, do you honestly believe that your friend covers all these topics in his six and a half pages? How is that possible when thousands of books have been written on each?

   As to your # 4, it reveals that you (astoundingly) have entirely missed the point about LDS beliefs in priesthood authority, despite living among them your entire life. How this is possible is difficult to comprehend.

   Your emphasis on an “ordained LDS Melchizedek High Priest” is curious. Latter-day Saints believe that every 12 year old ordained as a deacon has the authorized priesthood authority of God. Priesthood authority for Latter-day Saints is about performing ordinances that God recognizes because those performing them are his agents for the purposes of those ordinaces. That is the purpose of priesthood for Latter-day Saints.

   Your friend’s exposition contained the following point:

   But the redemption of Christ in the lives of sinners begins to produce a change (Col. 3:10, 2 Cor. 3:18) so that the image of God is progressively being recovered, and will fully be restored as believers receive their glorified bodies through their resurrection and the rapture (Col. 1:15, Rom. 8:29, I Jn. 3:2).

   Interestingly, this is exactly what the overwhelming majority of Latter-day Saints believe — at least in the sense that the point of the Atonement is to allow all people to become like God.

   But don’t you believe that man isn’t exactly in the image of God? Do you believe that God is man’s Father in Heaven (and that man and woman are therefore God’s children)? Do you believe that we look like God looks because we are created in his image? If so, does that mean you believe in an anthropomorphic God yet nevertheless that is of a different species than humans?

6. As to your # 4, it reveals that you (astoundingly) have entirely missed the point about LDS beliefs in priesthood authority, despite living among them your entire life. How this is possible is difficult to comprehend.

   It’s kind of like a white guy explaining what it means to be black…

7. You have me laughing, guys. Same language. Totally different biblical ecclesiology.

   Tate or John f., explain to me LDS Melchizedek High Priest Authority.

   And then could you explain to me the difference between LDS apostolic authority and LDS priestly authority.

   Which LDS calling requires the knowledge of LDS doctrine? Paid LDS teachers (H.S. seminary, undergraduate, and graduate)?

   Oh man, I do have a ton of questions. Does this mean that it is wrong for me to ask one possessing LDS High Priesthood authority what matters for LDS doctrine on biblical themes? Or is that a cause for more amusement? Is this the obligation of bishops?

   You know what I need. I need some kind of chart that lays out the progression of LDS earthly priesthood authority from the beginning to the end.

   And Tate, I need a link with lots of color and lots of simple illustrations. You know me.

   And where is Doug Towers when you need him?

8. Todd

   I’ve only just found this and have little time. So I’ll get to the rest later. But as to giving some great discourse on authoritive LDS writtings, the only such writings are the standard works – Book of Mormon, Bible, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Anything else is purely opinion. However I have talked to the Father personally – person to person. The Holy Ghost speaks to me. And I therefore feel quite authoritive to speak on God’s behalf.

9. Todd

   Your belief that where it uses the term “image and likeness” refers to an ability to think etc is still contrary to how it is used in the 10 commandments. Which is what I was saying in my post. Who’s personal opinion do we choose? Therefore the Bible is subject to private interpretation, and that is no safe method when we are looking at securing our eternal future.

   I. personally would disagree with you about animals etc. I have found animals, and even insects to make decisions differently from each other. You walk in and find two cockroaches on the floor. One runs and the other stays still hoping you won’t notice it. So much for instinct.

   You are suggesting that your intelligence being higher than insects somehow makes you so superior that you are in a class with God. That is strange considering the rest of Protestant doctrine about God.

   As to LDS priesthood and apostles. There are several priesthoods in Scripture. Then there are many offices within that priesthood. Apostle is a calling within the office of a High Priest within the Melchizedek Priesthood (as I understand it).

10. Hi Doug,

    From Jeremy’s doctrinal statements, he has written about a half page (in no way intended to be exhaustive) on each biblical theme.

    I was wondering if you could provide just a short summary for what you and LDS in your area of the world typically believe on each of the ten topics while I set forth a brief synopsis of what independent Baptists in the intermountain American West typically believe.

    Could I put forth Jeremy’s first statement on bibliology? and then could you put your positive perspective on what you believe about bibliology as the next comment. And in this manner, through all ten topics?

    On this particular post, I am not seeking to embroil you in lengthy debate. But I want to understand you. And I want you to understand more of what we Baptist elders/bishops believe. Ok?

    I will get Jeremy’s papers, and type in the first comment on bibliology.

    Will be back.

11. Hey, I am typing this (forgive any typos) in a room with over a dozen young elders, all dressed in dark navy or black suits. Smiling, friendly guys. Cool.

    Bibliology:

    I believe the Bible to be the complete (Deut. 4:2, 12:32, Rev. 22:18-19, Heb. 1:1-2) inerrant (2 Sam. 7:28, Rom. 3:4, Titus 1:2, Heb. 6:18, Num. 23:19, Ps. 12:6, 119:89, 96, Prov. 30:5, Matt. 24:35) and infallible (2 Tim. 3:16, Ps. 12:6, Ps. 119:96, Prov. 30:5, Acts 24:14, Luke 24:25, Rom. 15:4) direct revelation of the Person and work of God (Rom. 10:13-17, Jn. 1:1-5 & 14-18, Acts 4:12, Acts 17:22-34, Luke 24:44). It is sufficient for all that we need to know for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3-4, 2 Tim. 3:15-17, Ps. 119:1, I Pet. 1:23), and it is directly inspired as the verbal (every word), plenary (the whole, or every part) inspiration of God (2 Tim. 3:16, 2 Pet. 1:20-21). It is therefore the sole authority (2 Tim. 3:16, 2 Pet. 1:3-4, Jn. 12:48, Jn. 17:17, Luke 24:25, 2 Pet. 3:2) and only rule of faith and practice. The inspiration of the Bible exists in the original manuscripts; for this is where God breathed the words of Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16) and the Holy Spirit bore along the holy men of God (2 Pet. 1:20-21). In doing this, God ensured the accuracy and inerrancy of all that He desired to say while not destroying the personality of the writers that He used. Thus He has provided for us this revelation of Himself which has been preserved (Is. 40:8, Mt. 5:18, 24:35, Ps. 12:6-7, I Pet. 1:25) throughout the ages, so that we hold in our hands the very Word of God. I believe that the canon of Scripture consists of 66 books (the 39 Old Testament books, and the 27 New Testament books) and that the canon is complete and therefore closed to any other writings (Deut. 4:2, Prov. 30:5-6, Heb. 1:1-2, Rev. 22:18-19). I believe that God’s Word defends itself as being the very Word of God, as it must, for there is no other higher authority to which we may appeal to confirm this truth (Defended by the words of Jesus [Mat. 5:17-18, Luke 24:44, Ps. 82:6 & Jn. 10:35, Mt. 4:4,7,10, Mt. 21:42, Mt. 22:44], the words of the New Testament Authors [I Tim. 5:18, 2 Tim. 3:16, 2 Pet. 1:21, 2 Pet. 3:16], and the preaching of the early church [Acts 1:16, Acts 2:14-39 {Quotations from Joel 2:28-32, Psalm 16:8-11, Psalm 68:18 in Peter’s sermon}]). I believe that the Bible is to be interpreted with a plain literal interpretation whenever it is possible. I believe that Jesus Christ is the living Word, the revelation of God to man (Jn. 1:1-5, 14-18) that not even all of Scripture declares for our knowledge today (Jn. 21:25).

12. Tate or John f., explain to me LDS Melchizedek High Priest Authority.

    I don’t profess to have actually stayed awake long enough in seminary class or Sunday school to have committed these things into memory. I do, however, know what it is like to be a Mormon in Idaho Falls… and to know what it feels like realizing it’s a bunch of bunk and feeling stuck. While I like to spend my current days learning and growing as a Christian (preferably without additional monikers), and untangling the web of a Mormon past… I can’t help but continue to be amused by the dialogue of this blog. At any rate, side bar over… carry on. My apologies for the distraction.

13. Todd: re: # 12 — I don’t believe that Doug or anyone else is required to respond to you request for a tome on LDS theology. Further, your proof-texting of your beliefs is something I cannot take seriously. E.g., Do you really believe that any of the scriptures you cite for inerrancy really refer to inerrancy of the Bible as a book or even a finished work? Such a view is just naive. You might want to look at my paper “Bridging the Gulf” where I discuss these kinds of claims.

14. I am not asking for a lengthy tome. And I am not requiring of Doug . . . inviting.

    But I do think that doctrine is important to both Doug and me.

    And that is not to deny what Tate thinks is important, too.

    I will let Doug decide.

15. Todd

    On reviewing your statements I have come to realize your problem in this discussion. You are looking for authoritive statements on LDS theology.

    In your church you have an order of authority for doctrine. You must think as you are instructed. You pass on this doctrine to your congregation.

    In other words your doctrinal opinions are created by another person. You have what amounts to a monarchy.

    The LDS church is a democracy. We have a right to our own perception of the Scriptures. I can’t speak on behalf of all LDS, even in my area. I can only speak on behalf of God, by revelation.

    However it is interesting that some Protestant has had the nerve to set forth some scripture texts to support some of these doctrines that you have. I am amazed that he claims God to have a physical form like ours. I have to also agree with what some of my fellow LDS have stated relative to these texts. I hope you don’t mind me using them on my site.

    I don’t really believe that my opinion of the Bible would differ from anything Joseph Smith has already expressed. He supported the book, and has just mentioned to be wary of some flaws that have, unfortunately, crept in.

16. Ok, that is good. This is where I am curious about that LDS article of the faith: No LDS has really defined for me the boundaries of what hasn’t been translated correctly. I would think God would clearly spell this out for all the people in regards to this Holy Book.

    Is it left up to each individual LDS to decide what is and what isn’t right in the Bible based on their personal revelation?

    Need more help on LDS bibliology before I move on to the next biblical theme.

17. What are those “flaws” in the Bible?

18. Wow. Just, wow.
    DougT, you’re “mind bottling.”

19. Tate

    I’m glad to have given you some excitement.

    Todd

    You are still missing how the whole thing works. The gospel system works on revelation. Everything is personal. There are a set of basic rules established to make a standard to new members and those who don’t quite grab the picture of using the Holy Ghost. Prophets and Apostles set these basic standards out for requirements for new members – don’t smoke etc.

    Then there are conferences where these basic standards are promoted. However individual application and doctrinal belief should be growing in each person, not to come and accept the standard of belief of some other person. But to come to understand those things Heavenly Father has realised you have become prepared to understand. So personal knowledge grows on levels. There is a continuous change in doctrine as each individual learns more and more.

    Some problems in the Bible are obvious – how many angels did the women see in the tomb, where they sitting or standing, who got there first etc. But some are relative to some fairly serious doctrine.

    You yourself should be aware of the major difference between what the Sinaticus Codex version of the New Testament teaches, and what the previous versions taught in regard whether it is OK to be angry with people or not. This is a significant advance in knowledge of what Christ really taught about getting angry. This wasn’t finally translated and printed until 1884. All those before then, for well over a thousand years, had the impression it was OK to be angry at people if you felt it justified.

    The Book of Mormon set this straight in 1830. Too bad the Protestants didn’t just take Joseph Smith’s word for it.

    But the answer is really to be listenning to the Holy Ghost. There really is no written law for recognising when statements in scripture are written for a lower level of doctrine or a higher level of doctrine. If a person isn’t inspired by the Holy Ghost then it may be better they keep believing it as written for now.

    Joseph Smith, wisely, stated it as he did. And I support that statement completely. The JST does attempt to make some parts clearer and to fix some other errors. Unfortunately he didn’t declare it finished and said that some parts he had changed needed further work. So that version is for consideration only. And there the Holy Ghost becomes the key to understanding.

20. Ah, I remember one LDS blog discussing the JST change to some KJV verses related to anger. I think Joseph missed the whole point of the verses and thought them to be contradictions that needed inspired revision.

    Doug, I must mention to you something interesting today. I met an LDS teen here in Ammon that did not know what a pastor was. I couldn’t believe it. But the adult standing next to him, mentioned, “It is someone who functions like a bishop.”

    I would equate pastor/bishop/elder all on equal footing in a biblical sense; but of course, an evangelical pastor and an LDS bishop do not function the same. But more on that later in ecclesiology.

    I will type out for you the next section that Jeremy wrote on theology.

21. Todd

    The error I was referring to may have been concluded to have been a mistranslation by Joseph, I wouldn’t know. Either way he corrected the mistake.

    I think that comparing a pastor to a bishop would be a large simplification. “Pastor” (in the Biblical sense) I would see as a statement meaning a person, in any position, that is serving the members. Whereas a “Bishop” is a specific office.

    The person comparing the two may have been thinking from the sense that you organise things within your chapel, and a bishop is responsible for such organisation also.

22. Doug, here is the next blurb on theology:

    Theology:

    I believe that God is able to be truly known by mankind (Gen. 3:8-9, Jer. 9:23-24, Jn. 17:3, I Jn. 5:20, 2:13, Phil. 3:10) for He has revealed Himself to us (Rom. 1:19) through general revelation (creation [Ps. 19:1-6, Rom. 1:18-21] and conscience [Rom. 2:14-15]) and through special revelation (the Person of God [Jn. 1:14, Jn. 5:39, 46] and the Word of God [2 Cor. 3:18, Jn. 5:39, Luke 24:44-45]), but it is impossible for any person to fully understand or know God (Ps. 145:3, Ps. 147:5, Ps. 139:6, 2 Cor. 2:10-12, Rom. 11:33, Is. 55:9) for our finite minds can not grasp that which is infinite.

    I believe that God is a spirit (Jn. 4:24) existing eternally as three Persons (Mat. 3:16-17, Mat. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14, I Pet. 1:2, Jude 20-21), the Father (John 17, Is. 44:6), the Son (John 1:1-5, 20:28), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:1-4, Matt. 28:19, Ps. 139:7-8). Each of these persons is fully God, and yet there is only one God (Deut. 6:4).

    I believe that God is more than the sum of all of His attributes, for He possesses each attribute in its infinite amount (God does not have some love, He is love, etc.). I believe that God possesses attributes which are His alone, for they are unable to be shared by us (incommunicable). These incommunicable attributes are attributes such as: His eternality (Ps. 90:2), His self-existence (Acts 17:24-25), His immutability (Ps. 102:25-27, Mal. 3:6, Jas. 1:17), His omnipresence (Ps. 139:7-12), His omniscience (Ps. 139:1-6, Rom. 11:33), His omnipotence (Jer. 32:17), and His unity (Ex. 34:6-7). God also has attributes which may be shared by us (only to some degree) and these attributes are called his communicable attributes. God’s communicable attributes are attributes such as: His holiness (Is. 6:3, Lev. 19:2), His truthfulness (Tit. 1:2, Jn. 14:6), His goodness (Lk. 18:19, Ps. 100:5, 106:1), His love (1 Jn. 4:8), His righteousness (Deut. 32:4), His mercy (Heb. 4:16, Eph. 2:4). God is the only and absolute sovereign Ruler (Ps. 103:19, Rom. 11:36, Col. 1:16-17) of all His creation which He literally made from nothing in six literal days as the Bible account declares (Gen. 1-2, Rev. 4:11). God does nothing that would be contrary to His character (Tit. 1:2, Heb. 6:18).

23. Todd

    This writing about your God is interesting. It is nothing new to me, but it outlines many things that I find abominable about the God of Catholicism; which Protestantism inherited. A Loving God that actually burns people? A merciful God that never forgives those who don’t see his point of view? Hmmm.

    Additionly you last asked about incorrect translations in the Bible. You have quoted one – John 4:24 “God is a spirit”. The most ancient Greek text says “spirit the God”. The assumption that this should be translated as it has been is completely false, as would be realised if they read the rest of the verse and the one before. The spirit referred to is the Holy Spirit. If John had meant that God IS spirit he would have said so, as he said God IS Love in Greek (“the God love IS” 1Jn 4:8)(both 1st John and the Gospel of John were written in the same year, therefore to propose that he had changed his way of saying things wouldn’t hold as logical). So a better translation would be “God has a spirit [ie. the Holy Spirit] and he that worships him must worship him in that spirit and in truth”. I notice that the JST also makes similar comment on this. (The Greek script comes from “The New Testament in the Original Greek, by B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort – 1881”. No earlier versions of the original NT text have been found since).

    In asking me to present the LDS view of God I would have to begin by declaring that my version of God (as with most LDS) wouldn’t be the same as other LDS may believe, for the simple reason that my relationship is personal. I couldn’t help but feel, as I read your version of God, that I may as well have been reading a stock market report. I have spent many hours in personal discussion, talking with Heavenly Father face to face as a man speaketh with his friend (Exo 33:11). Therefore that which I say will be greatly influenced by those discussions: The emotions I have felt from him, and those feelings, on his situation, that he has expressed to me. Therefore the subject isn’t theory, but reality.

    Noting that there is a discussion on Christ coming next I will mostly leave him out of this discussion.

    In spite of our disagreement with the Catholic/Protestant concept of a trinity, Heavenly Father actually does consist of three parts, as all living things do. Firstly he is an intelligence. That is made of no substance but is totally independent, and must remain so, to some degree, to continue to exist. His intelligence is omnipresent. He can sense all feelings we have and perceive all things using this part. Then he has a spirit body that is made of spirit matter, and looks like our physical body. Spirit matter is more pure and refined and can’t be seen using your physical eyes (D&C 131:7-8). When people see spirits it is by using our spirit body eyes. This is the part of Heavenly Father that I have seen and spent hours in discussion with (his intelligence also obviously present – as bodies are only matter). Then he has a physical body that is exactly like ours in shape and substance other than that his is resurrected and perfected (it can’t die again).

    Because Heavenly Father is basically an intelligence (leaving matter aside for a moment) he is a co-intelligence with us. As such we are all equals in that we have equal rights as existences. All laws that work for Heavenly Father will work equally for us. However as he has done so much and learnt so much his intelligence is far superior to ours. If we do and learn as much as he has we would be exactly as he is (excluding his resurrected body, which we will have also with resurrection)(thus we are equal in that sense). However by that time he would have grown far more, so we would never reach where he is at any time.

    In spite of this continued growth God is physically unchangeable in that he remains a glorified resurrected being. His spirit body doesn’t change in substance either. His intelligence (while increasing) doesn’t change in nature. His teachings to us and his ways do not alter either.

    He continues to expand by having more children and aiding them to become like him (as any good father would). The added love that he produces by working with even more children expands him as an individual. These children come from the endless intelligences that exist throughout eternity. They are out there either waiting, and most not even aware (it would seem) that such opportunities exist. It is our responsibility, if we have any compassion, to do our best to assist in this work. Heavenly Father eagerly awaits our assistance. This will bring us true joy, as he has true joy in this service.

    Naturally, as he is in constant loving service, he is absolutely loaded with love. To say that he is love is a true statement. For it just radiates from him. It is a love that I had never before experienced. I don’t just mean in its depth, but its style. It is a totally pure, spiritual and completely unconditional love, that is even well beyond the love of a parent for their child. Or a wife or husband for their spouse. And its depth is just phenomenal. No matter what words I use I couldn’t begin to express this sufficiently to give an understanding.

    Heavenly Father would do ANY right thing to help us to have joy. He suffered having his only righteous Son suffer on our behalf, just so our consciences could be freed from the hell we give ourselves for our sins. In addition, he gives us the Holy Ghost to assist us to sanctify ourselves, so we can be completely pure. He is there for us whenever we need him. He will come and talk whenever we really want to listen. He is the most loving father that you could ever wish for. He has taken my thoughts of love to heights not imagined.

    Heavenly Father, as a God of love, will not literally throw anyone into a fiery pit. He wants to free us. If we don’t listen he CANNOT force us. Nor can he alter the spiritual consequences of our sins unless we open up to Christ in true and full repentance. He can only stand at the door and knock. We must open up. We are an intelligence and must be free, to continue to exist (D&C 93:30). Thus Heavenly Father can be considered as our earthly fathers in that he can only advise, we have to learn to make the right decisions as individuals. If we make the wrong ones he has to wait for us to see the bad consequences. Hoping then that we will wake up and ask him for help, and listen to his instructions. This way he can help us avoid further pain and anguish and find true happiness.

    This doesn’t detract from him being omnipotent in regard matter. He can control solar system after solar system, and all things therein. His power by using nature correctly is supreme.

    Heavenly Father also has great glory. This is where it gets difficult for us to see him. However he is able to hold this back in part or entirely. There is a great white light that shines from him and all around him when showing his glory. We require the Holy Ghost to stand in his presence and see this particularly.

    It should be obvious by now, but I will make it a point. God isn’t magical. He has no magic wand. He has no magic in him. He uses natural forces and principles to do all the things he does. We can equally use these same forces and principles if we gain as much love and wisdom as he has. God cannot do anything contrary to the eternal principles of righteousness and remain God. Nor does he wish to, as that would be contrary to his nature.

    In regard creation; Adam is made from the “dust of the ground” (Gen 2:7), not from nothing. God formed Adam and Eve in his own image – that means what it actually says. God took Adam’s spirit and placed it in Adam. And so man became a living soul – a spirit and body. The soul of all living creatures dies at death but the spirit goes on. The soul will come to live again at the resurrection of the body.

    We must know God to gain eternal life. God makes sense, has real emotions (such as love), and is in harmony with nature and all natural forces. The love of Jesus Christ is enormous and beyond imagination. But the love of Heavenly Father is even greater still. God’s love is not limited by some peak, but continues to grow forever. His ways are explainable if you open your heart to understand spiritual things and use the Holy Ghost. It is only the “natural man” that cannot understand his ways. We must also come to know Jesus Christ.

    Having said this however, we won’t come to understand all God understands in this lifetime.

    God is God from eternity to eternity. In other words before time began (at the beginning of the world), when eternity only existed, he was God. At the point that time ceases (at the end of the world) eternity will begin again, and he will still be God.

    Heavenly Father’s message to mankind is come unto me and I will show you how to have eternal joy and peace beyond your greatest dream. Mankind will tell you all sorts of contrary ideas. But they will not bring the happiness they claim. Life is confusing. Turn from these things and become one with me through my loving Son, Jesus Christ. I await with open arms for ALL.

24. Will get back with you on the next biblical theme.

25. Christology

    I believe that Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity, is God (Jn. 1:1-5, 14, Jn. 8:58, Phil. 2:9-11) and therefore He possesses all the divine characteristics of God (Mt. 8:26-27, 18:20, Mark 2:8, Jn. 2:19) making Him co-equal, co-substantial, and co-eternal with the Father and the Spirit (Col. 2:9). I believe that Jesus was born of a virgin (Is. 7:14, Mat. 1:23, 25, Lk. 1:26-35), laying aside none of his deity, but only the glories of heaven (Phil. 2:5-11), to become God incarnate (Immanuel [Is. 7:14, Mt. 1:23]). He thus became fully God losing none of his deity (Col. 2:9, Phil. 2:5-11), and fully sinless man (2Cor. 5:21, Heb. 4:15, 7:26) losing no part of humanity (Lk. 2:7, 2:40, Jn. 4:6, 19:28, Lk. 23:46). He is therefore the God-man sent to reveal God to man (Jn. 1:18, 14:7-11), to reconcile sinful man to God through his propitiation and redemption accomplished through the perfect substitutionary sacrifice and shedding of His blood on the cross of Calvary (Heb. 10:1-10, Heb. 2:16-17, Rom. 3:24-25), to exemplify for us the pattern of life (1Jn. 2:6, 1Pet. 2:21), to be the Mediator between God and man (1Tim. 2:5), to be a sympathetic and faithful High Priest (Heb. 4:14-16), to be a qualified Judge (Jn. 5:22,27), and to destroy the works of the Devil (1Jn. 3:8, Heb. 2:14). The atonement for the sin of man was accomplished by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross (Heb. 9:26,28, Rom. 5:19, 3:23-25, Jn. 3:13-19). There he provided salvation for all through His substitutionary death (Rom. 5:8, 2Cor. 5:15, Jn. 19:1-37), burial (Jn. 19:38-42), and resurrection on the third day (John 20, Acts 2:32, 1Cor. 15), conquering death, sin, and the grave (1Cor. 15:54-58, Heb. 2:14-15, Rom. 6:3-7); and giving to all this full salvation (Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 13-14) upon their acceptance of it (Rom. 10:9-13, Acts. 16:31). Jesus is now ascended to Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mk. 16:19, Acts 1:9) as our Advocate (1Jn. 2:1-2) and Intercessor (Rom. 8:34, Heb. 7:25). He will come again (Acts 1:9-11, 1Thess. 4:13-18, Jn. 14:3), not as a humble servant (Phil. 2:7-8), but as Lord (Phil. 2:9-11, Rev. 19:11-21) to receive His own to Himself (Jn. 14:3) and return with His own to rule (Rev. 19-20).

26. Todd,

    Your list of proof texts simply do not assert what you claim in many cases.

    You are right to point to Jesus being divine in Jn. 1.1, but as noted Catholic scholar Raymond E. Brown has said:

    “The prologue’s “the Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “God” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again, the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved…It is Jesus Christ who says in John xiv 28, “The Father is greater than I,” and who in xvii 3 speaks of the Father as “the only true God”.”

    Furthermore, Col 2.9 (cf. Col. 1.19) says nothing about “co-equal, co-substantial, and co-eternal”–that is simply your eisegesis as to what “fullness of God/Godhead” means based on your post-biblical definitions of God. Where exactly are these terms like “co-substantial and co-equal” exactly found in your bible? I seem to be having trouble find them and their attendant biblical explanations.

27. Todd

    Once again I need to put the disclaimer at the beginning and point out that my knowledge of Christ is individual. Not all LDS would see every issues as I do.

    As we will be discussing salvation and redemption further on, I won’t mention too much in that regard here.

    Jesus Christ is Jehovah of the OT. He is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh (meaning fallen flesh). He is the Lord God of Israel. He isn’t the Father, but he is the Father in the sense that he reflects the feelings, actions and thoughts of the Father (John 14:8-12). Therefore in the flesh he is the Son, but by the feelings of his heart, and subjecting his will to the Father, he becomes the Father. Thus he can be said to be the Father and the Son (Mosiah 15:2).

    The Father is greater than the Son. But by Jesus living the perfect life he lived and the things he has done, he is made equal in STATUS with the Father.

    As with all living beings Jesus Christ is made of three parts – intelligence, spirit body and physical body. He is an eternal intelligence; as all intelligences are eternal. He was born first as a spirit child (Col 1:15). Thus he received a spirit body at that time. We were all born after him. So he is our elder brother as spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

    Jesus (from his personal growth point of view) came to earth to get a physical body. He had to go through the same process we all do, of learning and growing as a physical individual (Luke 2:52). He learnt to make the right choices by watching the problems sin caused in others, rather than having to experience any himself (as we do because we aren’t as intelligent as he is. Abr 3:19). ie we often have to make mistakes to learn particular things, yet some things we learn by seeing the problems those things give to others. This requires us to also listen to the Spirit often. He learnt everything by others mistakes and listening to the Spirit, rather than having to make any mistakes himself. Therefore he didn’t sin.

    Jesus Christ’s special mission consisted of 2 essential parts. Firstly he atoned for the sins, of those who truly repent, in the garden of Gethsemane and on the cross. Secondly as he is the firstborn as a spirit, so he also was the firstborn from the dead. He made resurrection possible by his death and resurrection.

    As a side mission he also set up his church at that time, by teaching and giving authority.

    Before we came here he had the special position of being in charge of the creation of the earth. Heavenly Father was the instigator. Jesus Christ was the foreman. And we (those able and interested in helping) were the learners. However it is Jesus Christ that holds the planets together in this area and many others. He therefore can be considered our God in that sense. To get to the Father you MUST go through the Son. All communication with the Father is channelled through the Son. This I have personally seen. So he is our mediator in several ways.

    As you would probably be aware, the name “Jesus” is the English version a Greek word (as the NT was written in Greek). His real name was most likely “Yeshua”, as he was a Jew. Several titles are given to Jesus. Firstly we have “Messiah”, which is the OT equivalent of “Christ” as used in the NT, B of M, D&C and P of GP. That is referring to the fact that he was the chosen one that was anointed (as the word means) in the pre-existence for the special work that he performed.

    He also has titles such as “Saviour” and “Redeemer” that relate to the fact that he saves those repentant from hell by his atonement, and that he redeems us all from physical death by his resurrection.

    As Jesus Christ is the key within the whole plan Heavenly Father laid before us, we talk of “the gospel of Jesus Christ”. The good news includes the fact that we can have forgiveness of sins and resurrection because of Jesus Christ.

    When we pray, we pray to Heavenly Father through Christ, as he stated. We don’t pray to the Lord (Jesus Christ) through Jesus Christ. Therefore any thinking LDS, if quoting the Lord’s prayer, should conclude it with, “in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.”

    Having taken upon himself the sins of mankind in the garden and suffered to relieve us of the pain for our sins; his body being a mess after such a feat; and having completed his task, he went to fulfil the final act of dying an ignominious death. Thus, in a sense, he took our sins and nailed them to the cross. He died because he had saved us from our sins. Paul made great point of this particular part of the act, probably because it was the only part that people could understand the pain involved in. However his greatest pain, by far, was in the garden where he bled from every pore (something that would kill a normal person, who didn’t have an immortal father – thus he had to be the Son of God in the flesh also). He required an angel to help him, and did it in stages, not all at once. The shear agony of that act is far beyond our comprehension. He not only suffered for EVERY sin individually, that every person on earth who truly repents has done, but also for all repentant on many other planets.

    His premature death also served to quicken the time for resurrection of those awaiting it that rose at that time (Matt 27:52-53). Thus Christ was eager to die then for that purpose also.

    To save you asking the obvious questions. Two points that cause some confusion, and that no member can speak on behalf of other members in regard to, are the way in which Heavenly Father is Christ’s father, and Jesus and marriage. And so what I am about to say is strictly that which I KNOW to be true, but I can only speak as one. Luke 1:35 presents that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary to assist her, and the Father came, and by the action performed Jesus was the son of God (which is virtually an instantaneous action, done strictly in great love). All living things that have ever lived upon the earth, have parents. And Jesus Christ, as the High Priest (Heb 5:10, Heb 6:20), definitely was married or he would have been rejected (the law of Moses makes NO exceptions) (Lev 21:10+13). Also he needed a wife for eternal marriage, as is required to be a God.

    Now take 5 minutes out to get your head back on your shoulders and we will proceed.

    After death, while still a spirit, Jesus Christ organised the teaching of the gospel to the dead (1 Pet 3:18-20). He spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth (Matt 12:40). It would seem that he was crucified on Wednesday and placed in the tomb. He spent Wed night, Thur night and Fri night in the tomb. Making the 3 days Thur, Fri and Saturday. He rose during Saturday night (remembering that their day went from morning to morning, not the middle of the night to the middle of the night, as ours does. When the women came early in the morning of the Sunday he was already resurrected. There is confusion about the reference of him being needed to be put in the tomb quickly for the coming sabbath. However this wasn’t the weekly sabbath as has been supposed, but one of the other sabbaths of the law of Moses observed at that time of year.

    After resurrection he went to the Americas and taught the gospel there. He also went to many other places.

    He directs the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to the degree members are prepared to hear. He has given it his full authority to perform those functions required.

    He will return again for what is termed his “second coming”. He will also have what could be termed a “third coming” at the end when everything will be finalised. He and Adam will present the whole thing, completed, back to Heavenly Father at the end.

28. Pneumatology

    I believe the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, is God (Mt. 28:19, Acts 5:3-4, 1Cor. 3:16). Like Jesus, He is co-equal, co-substantial, and co-eternal with the other two members of the trinity (Ps. 139:7-8, Heb. 9:14). The Holy Spirit is not a force or an influence, but rather He is a Person, as are the other members of the Godhead, and He possesses the attributes of personality: intellect (1Cor. 2:10-13), emotion (Eph. 4:30), and will (1Cor. 12:11). As God, the Holy Spirit possesses the attributes of God and was in the past involved in works that God alone can do such as: creation (Gen. 1:2, Ps. 104:30, Job 26:13, 33:4), revelation and inspiration (2Pet. 1:20-21, Mt. 22:43, Acts 1:16, 28:25), the incarnation (Mt. 1:18, 20, Lk. 1:35), and the resurrection (Rom. 8:11). The coming of the Holy Spirit in this age fulfilled the promise of Jesus that the Father would send another Comforter of the same type (Jn. 14:16-17, 15:26) whose present ministry includes: restraining and reproving the world of sin, righteousness and judgment (2Thes. 2:7-8,Jn. 16:7-11), glorifying Jesus Christ (Jn. 16:14), regenerating (Jn. 3:3-8, Tit. 3:5) and then indwelling, (Rom. 8:9, 1Cor. 3:16), sealing, (2Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13, 4:30), and baptizing believers (1Cor. 12:13, Acts 1:5). He further works in the lives of believers through His process of sanctification by gifting (1Cor. 12:1-11), filling (Eph. 5:18), teaching (Jn. 16:12-15), guiding (Rom. 8:14), assuring (Rom. 8:16), interceding (Rom. 8:26), illuminating (1Cor. 2:6-16), and enabling believers to demonstrate the presence of the Holy Spirit by bearing the fruit of the Spirit in their lives (Gal. 5:22-23). The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance (Eph. 1:13-14) and is not to be grieved (Eph. 4:30), quenched (1Thes. 5:19), or resisted (Acts 7:51).

29. Bibliology 2 – Sources of Truth.

    One subject you missed is a discussion of how to obtain truth. To you Bibliology would have covered it. Yet to an LDS it would only be a small part of the subject. I feel that for a more complete presentation of LDS ideas it is essential that you know the answer to where they come from.

    I have noted your mentioning of what you term “changing doctrine” of the church. So I’m sure it would be helpful for me to explain just how, as an LDS, I determine which doctrine, of those I’m presented with, to recognise as the fullest truth.

    When my children were really little I told them never to touch a power socket/point/jack or power cords. As my oldest got on she was somewhat shocked to have me one day tell her to plug in a power cord. And as time went on I eventually taught her to take one apart and repair it. If, on the other hand, one of my children wasn’t responsible with this freedom I would remove the right from them, and give them back the more basic law, until I felt I could give them another go. So is our Heavenly Father with us.

    Two examples of this in the Bible are, first the giving of the law of Moses to Israel when previously the gospel of Jesus Christ was known (Heb 3:16 & 4:2), and second the re-establishment of the gospel of Jesus Christ at the time of John the Baptist (Lk 16:16).

    While these situations may be considered by some to be “changing doctrine” nothing had really altered. It never was good to be angry with anyone, or to lust anyone etc. So Christ wasn’t creating NEW concepts, but improving the information level.

    Therefore as levels of knowledge, within the church generally, can rise and fall (eg read D&C 119 heading), the question arises as to how I determine what is the greater truth, as a sincerely searching LDS wishing to progress beyond the basic level?

    There are many readable sources I can find information for consideration from. The first and primary readable source are the Standard Works (scripture). Conference talks and books by past church leaders are good for ideas also.

    But, in the end, these do pose some problems in being certain of every statement contained therein. For example the prophets prior to Christ in the Book of Mormon and OT could only speak from personal knowledge. And in spite of some inspiration their knowledge wasn’t as full as ours should be: They didn’t have the sermon on the mount to refer to etc. Their thinking reflected the law of Moses that they were under. So statements they made about God weren’t made with as much additional knowledge in many cases.

    Next, as the people they were speaking to were often even less informed, the level of information was a bit on the down side for this reason also. This same situation exists to some degree in the church today, as there are new members and those not really ready for deeper understanding, to consider. It is important to give people milk before meat (as Christ and Paul pointed out). So even those things stated by GAs today become limited, as a member stretches on in learning past those basics.

    This then leads to the importance of prayer and revelation from the Holy Ghost. However even here some will protest that information can come from the wrong source. So how can we really know?

    Quite simple. Several ways exist of knowing truth from error.

    Firstly there is feeling from the messenger (if inspired – which truth generally will be). The dark side (Satan and his mates) are exactly that. And their ways are obvious – anger, hate, revenge, despair, greed, twisted and distorted concepts etc. On the other hand God gives freedom, has love, peace, forgiveness, patience and all those other good things.

    Next, there is light in truth. If the thing is completely true it will cause light in you that your spirit will love (this light is actually visible to your spirit eyes). If it is only partially right it won’t be exactly like that, but will still have some feeling of good. I then know it needs further work, but I’m on the right track. If it is completely wrong I won’t feel this at all, and the Holy Ghost may inform me that I’m up the wrong track altogether.

    Then there is the fact that it fits in this place in eternity. If it can’t fit in a spot in eternity then it is false. Search sincerely for that and you will find it.

    Living principles have the obvious living test. That is that if you practice them fully for a sustained period and nurture them, they will make you feel good inside. Some principles required little testing, and some require extended effort, to prove. A simple test of living principles is to go to a hospital and visit a person not getting visitors. Put that person’s face in your head afterward and think of how pleased they were you came. Then ask yourself if you can’t feel a good feeling in your heart?

    In addition to the Holy Ghost you can have personal, two-way, discussion with Heavenly Father or with Jesus Christ, as have had many before us.

    I’ll respond to the Holy Ghost issue next.

30. The Holy Ghost

    The terms “Holy Ghost”, “Holy Spirit” and “the Spirit” are exactly the same thing, and so I will use the terms interchangeably.

    He bears witness of the Father and the Son. Whereas the Father bears witness of the Son, and the Son bears witness of the Father.

    The Holy Ghost is different from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in that he is a personage of spirit and has no physical body (D&C 130:22). As a spirit he can be seen with our spirit eyes. However seeing him is a rare circumstance (I have only experienced it twice) as he is generally residing inside you with no reason to come out. We aren’t given any information in regard how he fits in with the plan of salvation from the point of his personal exaltation. Because he focuses on teaching truth about life as it is, and Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, he doesn’t explain himself. However his nature and methods are evident from scripture and experiences with him.

    Because the Holy Spirit has no body, he can reside in us (D&C 130:22). Often he will visit to inspire people but not actually reside in them permanently. This often happens with members (D&C 130:23). This is due to two factors. One is unrighteousness: The Holy Ghost isn’t going to reside in someone while they are lusting (for example). The second problem is a lack of faith to listen to him. Often member’s perception of using the Holy Ghost is asking him about rare things, rather than using him to guide their lives on a daily basis. Then there is the Devil’s fear factor; “Bill Jones went astray listening to the wrong source so don’t get revelation.” However many good members have their lives led by the Holy Spirit. In fact to gain eternal life we must listen to the Holy Spirit and have him as our permanent guide (D&C 45:57).

    There are gifts of the Spirit which we should seek: Prophecy, healing, wisdom, knowledge, faith, seeing angels and spirits, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, translation, revelation and preaching (I may have missed something there). I can testify to you the truth of all these gifts from personal experience, other than translation and actually speaking in tongues.

    The Holy Spirit may inspire the mind. This can be done subtly or very heavily (or somewhere between). Additionally the Holy Spirit may give burnings in your heart (spirit). These burnings can also be major or minor. They can go on and on, or be brief. He can also speak to the mind (which isn’t exactly hearing a voice physically, but very close to it).

    The Holy Spirit can help you with anything, from what jam to buy to answering how Jesus holds the worlds together. Depending on how in tune you are with him.

    After having faith in Christ, repenting of our sins and ceasing them, we need to have our hearts sanctified. The Holy Spirit does this sanctification. He helps us understand how to change and what to change to. He helps to reform our thinking.

    The Holy Ghost has always been available to those who have sort to understand truth. The Scriptures are written with his direction. The Holy Ghost wasn’t common during the time when the gospel wasn’t common (ie during the law of Moses period).

    The Holy Ghost is required for us to stand in the presence of Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ (Ezek 3:23-24).

    The Holy Ghost is essential to reading the scriptures and understanding what you are reading (2 Pet 1:20-21).

    To have a true testimony of Jesus Christ it is required to have revelation from the Spirit (Rev 19:10).

31. Anthropology:
    I believe that man was created by the direct act of God (Gen. 1:26-28, 2:7, 5:1), fulfilling God’s plan in creation and completing His creation so that it was very good (Gen 1:26-31). God did not need man (Acts 17:24-25), but God has made man for Himself (for His own glory [Is. 43:7, 43:21, Col. 1:16]), and man, as the creation of God, exists to glorify Him and enjoy a relationship with Him forever (Rev. 4:11, Rom. 11:36, Ps. 16:11, 73:25-26). The creation of man is different from the other creation in that man was made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26) and possesses both a material and non-material part (Gen. 2:7, 3:19, 2Cor. 5:1, 1Thess. 5:23, Matt. 10:28, 2Cor. 5:8). This image of God expresses the idea of man’s likeness to God (Gen. 1:26) as seen in the material part which can see and hear etc., but this image of God is especially seen in the immaterial part of man which consists of traits such as: personality (intellect, self-consciousness, relationship), morality (accountability, sense of right and wrong), and spirituality (reason, conscience, will) thereby distinguishing man from all of the other creation which was not made in the image of God. Through man’s sin, this image of God has been distorted rendering sinful man far less in the image of God than was Adam in the original creation (Ecc. 7:29, Gen. 9:6). This sin which distorts the image of God and passes to all men brings both physical and spiritual death (Rom. 5:12, 6:23). But the redemption of Christ in the lives of sinners begins to produce a change (Col. 3:10, 2Cor. 3:18) so that the image of God is progressively being recovered, and will fully be restored as believers receive their glorified bodies through their resurrection and the rapture (Col. 1:15, Rom 8:29, 1Jn. 3:2).

32. Todd

    Just so I can understand what you are saying correctly I have to ask qualifying questions here (and as you seem to be keen to qualify your beliefs for my benefit also). What do you mean when you say that we have the same traits as God and include accountability – to whom is God accountable? Morality – what sets what is moral to God? Sense of right and wrong – what is right and wrong to God? Reason – by what law do you consider God determines what reason is?

    And just how close to God’s personality do you conclude we come when being freed from our sins?

    And I’m still informed by Protestants that God has no personality – emotions needing the relationship you speak of?

    And when you speak of the “rapture”, are you talking of the rapture as we understand it (at Christ’s second coming) or some prior removal?

    I also have to ask, if God made man for himself what was the purpose of this invention (assuming you don’t accept the prior existence of man’s spirit) considering that God doesn’t need man (as you propose)?

33. 1. Accountability within the plural relationship of God.
    2. God is the fount of morality, the Determiner of right and wrong; and He sets forth law among mankind in scriptural revelation.
    3. When one if finally glorified, every thought, every ambition, every emotion will be in complete harmony with God. (I have a hard time with the concept of absolute impassibility, so do even some Calvinists).
    4. Prior removal before tribulation period (But I don’t consider my rapture interpretation as a fundamental that I would die for when it comes to eschatology. My godly grandfather believed the saints would go right through the worst of the tribulation. So be it. One thing is absolutely clear as a fundamental – Christ’s second coming.
    5. Purpose – here is one verse we looked at this past Wednesday night: Isaiah 43:21.

34. 1. So we are then like him in that we are accountable to ourselves?

    2. Pardon me for being cynical, but I am left with God being able to decide for himself what is right and wrong. And we are created in his image in that we can decide for ourselves what is right and wrong!!!!????

    3. I can see your problem here as you are proposing such a oneness with God that we would be him.

    4. That was a side issue that I was just curious about.

    5. Obviously he gains something from us being here. But I am asking your belief on what he is gaining? Particularly when you don’t believe he needs anything.

    You have suggested that I have misrepresented Protestantism in saying that this area was undefined. So I feel I’m being fair in giving you the opportunity to completely define it.

35. Doug, share your belief on anthropology.

    Then I am thinking of harmatiology.

    And after that the joy of soteriology! What joy! What unspeakable joy!

36. Todd

    It isn’t that I’m not interested in sharing my beliefs, but as you stated this as being an area of your opinion that I have misrepresented I want to hear your opinion.

    What you have said is TOTALLY undefined. The purpose of a language is to communicate ideas. You haven’t succeeded in communicating your ideas to me. If you can’t define your belief then just say so and I’ll proceed anyway.

37. Doug, write on.

    And when we have gone through all the doctrines, let’s regroup on your top questions (for example, how we are made in God’s image).

    Sound ok?

    [Sometime in the future, I would like to post on HI4LDS – our church’s articles of faith.]

38. I have to give the usual disclaimer at the beginning of this, that this is my knowledge as one person, not as an authorised representative of the church. Much of what I am about to write came by personal revelation, personal experience and the Holy Ghost opening the Scriptures to me.

    You should also note that I have neither confirmed nor denied your assumption of me being a high priest. Nor have I confirmed or denied having the Melchizedek Priesthood. That is because it is the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father that have taught me these things. They are my authority for saying these things. Therefore an 8-year-old girl would be just as authorised to answer in behalf of God as an apostle if she used the Spirit to answer the questions. Though I understand your perception of authority. You have asked for the truth, and out of love for you as a fellow being it is therefore my obligation to deliver it to you.

    Throughout the endless space exist countless intelligences. And when I say, “countless,” that is such an understatement it is ridiculous. All laws governing all things are eternal and equal to all beings. An intelligence has no beginning and has no end (Abr 3:18, D&C 93:29). It can’t be forced to do things it doesn’t accept to do (D&C 93:30), except as it allows its freedom to be taken by sin.

    Our intelligence didn’t see anything with eyes, as it had no physical or spirit body to have eyes. It perceives substances around it, and their shape by feelings.

    As intelligences we communicated by telepathy, which people still use to some degree. We also could send our feelings and feel other’s feelings. We could analyse intelligences by the amount of light as to darkness that they sent out. There is this other way we can completely see the inner person, which I can’t exactly explain in words. These abilities still exist for those sufficiently in touch with their inner being to use them.

    We had existed forever when Heavenly Father came along and proposed the idea of progression to give us spirit matter bodies: So we could be spirits. Choices being as they are, and beings being as they are, obviously many would have refused. But many accepted to be born as spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

    Jesus Christ was born first (Col 1:13-15) and many other more prepared intelligences were chosen, in what we would term “the Morning” of this process. Satan also is a “Son of the Morning”.

    Those intelligences that more matched the attributes of women were made female, and those with attributes more man like were made male – no “really a woman in a man’s body”.

    Having been born with spirit bodies we needed to be raised by our heavenly parents. At some point we had come to the time of being ready to move forward to gaining a physical matter body.

    Our Heavenly Father had taught us many things, if we asked and were keen to learn. Among those was the ability to move physical matter: To have it obey us (Abr 4:18, Matt 21:21). Thus when Heavenly Father presented the plan to come to a planet and gain a physical body, he asked who would like to help? Those of us who could, and wished to, helped out.

    Unfortunately one-third of the human spirits present decided not to go. Satan had presented a plan where he was going to force us all to do the right thing and him have the glory. Of course this was nonsense, as intelligences must be free to make choices or we don’t exist. But Satan wasn’t too bright in such heart matters – an intellectual.

    The one-third that didn’t want to come, for their various reasons, went along with Satan. I would suppose this was because he had the biggest mouth and could attract a crowd. So they are the evil spirits. Of course some of these are less committed than others.

    Intelligences come in all levels of intelligence. Thus many have become plants, insects, fish, animals etc. Because we were the more progressed intelligences we were born to humans (Heavenly Father and Mother). Dogs were born to Celestial dog parents. Cats to Celestial cat parents etc. So the spirits of all living things look like the physical body (D&C 77:2A).

    When it came time to put living things upon the earth it was a case of heavenly parents of the individual being having these children. Heavenly Father and Mother partook of the matter which makes up this earth and their children (Adam and Eve) became living souls (ie a spirit and a physical body)(Gen 2:7). Adam and Eve were raised by their heavenly parents and communicated with them (Gen 3:8), as were all living things.

    Thus we are in the image of God – the Hebrew word here meaning in a spiritual sense – a phantom or shade. And we are in his likeness – the Hebrew referring to looking exactly the same (refer Strong’s Concordance for both of these meanings).

    Animals etc are all in the image and likeness of their respective heavenly parents.

    At some point man (they being the superior intelligences) brought about a fall that affected every living thing from then on. As physical bodies are affected by the spirit/intelligence’s state, death and disease came because of sin. From birth we are all affected by the sins of our parents (meaning progenitors).

    We can’t actually sin until we reach an age where we are capable of recognising feelings produced from doing good or evil. Neither could Adam or Eve. These days God has stated that 8 years old is the time that a person has sinned by, and needs repentance and baptism D&C (68:27). In regard this I can testify this to be true from my personal experiences at 7 years old and some things I’ve noticed in others.

    Christ made physical resurrection possible by also atoning for “original sin”. Thus death is overcome.

39. Thinking of sin . . .

    This leads us right into the next doctrine.

    Hamartiology:
    I believe that sin is not caused by God, created by God, or participated in by God (Deut. 32:4, Gen. 18:25, Job 34:10, Jas. 1:13). Rather sin exists because of the willful voluntary action of men and angels that is exercised as a rebellion against God (1Jn. 3:4, Tit. 2:14) in act (Ex. 20:13-15), attitude (Ex. 20:17), or nature (Rom. 5:8, Eph. 2:3) which fails to conform to the standard of God (Rom. 3:23) and transgresses the law of God (Rom. 4:15, 5:14). The origin of sin for mankind was the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when they willfully chose to disobey the revealed command of God (Gen. 3:1-19). Because of this original sin of Adam, all of mankind is born in this same sinful condition as guilty before God (Rom. 5:8, 12-14, 18-19). Man therefore is totally depraved, meaning that the corruption of sin extends to every part of mankind making him unable to have any personal merit in the sight of God (Rom. 7:18, Tit. 1:15, Jer. 17:9, Rom. 3:9-20), and entirely unable to accomplish anything spiritually good in the sight of God (Is. 64:6). Sinners are therefore under the condemnation of God (Rom. 1:32-2:2, 3:19-20) Who will justly judge them for their sin (2Thess. 1:7-9, Rev. 20:11-13, Rom. 2:5-7), and apart from their acceptance of the shed blood of the perfect Sacrifice, the Lamb of God (Jn. 1:29, Rev. 5:9-10, Heb. 9:11-15), there can be no remission of their sin or pardon from their condemnation (Heb. 9:22, Lev. 17:11, Rom. 8:1). The sin of a Christian does not affect his relationship with God in reference to his legal standing before God, for all trespasses are forgiven (past, present, and future [Col. 2:13-15]) and there is no condemnation (Rom. 8:1); but this relationship is nonetheless affected in that there is a break in the fellowship with God (Eph. 4:30, Heb. 12:5-11) which can only be remedied by the confession of that sin and the forgiveness of a faithful and just God restoring the fellowship (1Jn. 1:9, Ps.32:1-5). The temptations to sin can come from the world (1Jn. 2:15-17), the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21), and the devil (2Cor. 2:11, Eph 6:11, 1Pet 5:8-9).

40. Sin Generally and Original Sin

    Once again the usual disclaimer must be stated. Some of the things I will express will be based on personal revelations that I had BEFORE discovering that Brigham Young had similar revelations. So some of these things will be somewhat different to what is commonly believed by LDS today.

    As you have Salvation as a separate issue I will basically avoid that subject.

    Heavenly Father and his wife partook of the matter from which this earth was made, and Adam and Eve were born and placed upon the earth (thus they are made from the dust of this earth). Heavenly Father and Mother had constant discussion with them in raising them, of course. At some point they reached the age of accountability (these days that is somewhere during the age of 7, so that baptism is necessary by the 8th birthday). Having reached this age they eventually committed an act against what they had been instructed was correct. Thus they had feelings in their hearts from this that created a state of conflict with natural laws. Therefore their bodies began to become as mortal as we are now (a process that took about 2400 years to be complete for mankind – ie at the time of Moses life spans had come down to only being about 70 years, yet Adam lived to 930). Interestingly this is another reason why man’s dating methods fail. Matter was in a state of constant change (falling) for that entire time.

    Because of this act we all die. As Lehi pointed out (2 Nep 2:22-23), had they done no transgression all things would have gone nowhere. They couldn’t do any good because there was no good to do (nothing died or got sick, no work to do, no one to feed etc) – good feelings come from service.

    Sin wasn’t invented. Evil can be regarded as an act opposing any eternal law. Good is that which is in harmony with eternal laws. So if I hate, I oppose the harmony of my spirit inside. That particular eternal law for harmony inside says that we should love. If in this hateful state I murder someone, then I have broken the lesser laws also – a far more serious sin (Jam 2:8-12).

    Sin is aimed at the 3 parts of our being – intelligence, spirit body and physical body. Pleasing to the taste (physical), pleasing to the eye (spirit), and desired to make one wise (intelligence) (Gen 3:1-6). Luke 4:1-13 demonstrates Satan using these same 3 areas of attack on Christ. John 2:16 refers to them as – the lust of the flesh (physical), the lust of the eyes (spirit), and the pride of life (intelligence).

    When sin entered into the world it brought other consequences that God outlined to them (Gen 3:16-19). These statements contain lessons for us. Because of sin we actually need to do work to get the ground to bring forth its best. Thus the less we sin the better result we will get from our harvest. I knew a women who grew vegetables the size of which you would be amazed to see. They were truly gigantic. If I wasn’t looking at them personally I wouldn’t have believed it was true. A tomato over a foot wide. She used no fertilizer. But she played music to them through the window and went out and talked to them nicely.

    So by the transgression of Adam and Eve all nature fell. Because of this we are all affected in that we die and get sick etc, as does all nature. Thus it was necessary for God to provide a way to repair the problem of death being permanent. Christ came and was resurrected to allow us to be resurrected also.

    While God opposes sin, he uses sin to bring about his purposes. For example the sin of Joseph’s brothers caused Joseph to go to Egypt, and thus Israel went to Egypt for that time. Then he used the sin of the Egyptians to motivate the Israelites to leave Egypt. He used the sins of the Babylonians to get Israel to repent of their sins. He used the sins of Adam and Eve to bring about mankind.

    Our sins bring about a separation from God, because we have difficulty being in his presence and therefore avoid seeking it. Sin brings a guilt that is likened in the Bible to being in the rubbish tip of Jerusalem (Gehenna) that was burning the rubbish all day. We don’t notice this physically, but our conscience is sufferring. Even the most hardened of people are sufferring this, whether they accept it or not. Christ removes this pain from the truly repentant by sufferring for it, in the garden of Gethsemane (D&C 19:16-19). Having taken our sins he, in a sense, nailed them to the cross. But I’ll discuss this more under salvation.

    While babies are born with the result of the first transgression (death and sickness), babies are NOT born sinners (Rom 5:13) as they cannot even understand the law.

    Having fallen bodies makes situations that are a groundwork for Satan to use to persuade us to do evil. Therefore we have to be guided by the spiritual rather than the physical (natural man). Thus the Holy Ghost can teach us and lead us to understand the right choices. God loves all (Matt 5:45). But God’s ability to work with us is relevant to our desire to listen to him and follow his instruction. If we honour the spiritual laws given by Christ we will be perfect in the scriptural sense (Matt 5:48). This command wasn’t a command that can’t be obeyed (God doesn’t give such – 1 Cor 10:13), as Satan would like us to believe. In fact the scriptures make referrence to several people who were perfect from this sense (Gen 6:9, Job 1:1, D&C 107:43).

    God doesn’t literally stop anyone from coming to him. I liken the situation of Heavenly Father to us as that of a carpenter and his apprentices. If we listen to the tradesman, who is doing the job; study the subject; and learn the trade by actions then we will become capable of doing carpentry. But if we slacken off, do a sloppy job, only turn up sometimes, or want to build a house how we think it should be built when he says that won’t work, then we won’t be capable of doing the job. Heavenly Father wants all the help he can get. But we have to learn HOW to be a God. And he is the God.

41. Pingback: Mormons and Monotheism « Heart Issues for LDS

42. Doug, your last sentence sparked a brand new post for me.

    I will place the soteriology comment on here shortly.

43. Soteriology:
    I believe that salvation is entirely a work of God as an act of grace (Eph. 1:4-7, 2:8-9, Jn. 1:12) for the purpose of redeeming (1Pet. 1:18-19, Rev. 5:9), reconciling (Rom. 5:10, 2Cor. 5:18-19), regenerating (Eph. 2:1-5, Col. 2:13), forgiving (Col. 2:13), and justifying (Rom 3:24-25, Rom. 5:9), sinful mankind through the substitutionary atonement (Mark 10:45, 1Tim. 2:6) and sacrifice (Heb. 9:26) of Christ as a propitiation (1Jn. 4:10) for man’s sin. In this God has demonstrated His wisdom, love, grace and mercy, (Eph. 2:4, Rom. 11:33-36) while satisfying His justice, wrath, and holiness (Jn. 3:36, 1Thess. 1:10, Rom. 3:25-26), and ultimately bringing glory to Himself (Eph. 1:5-12, Rev. 4:11, 5:9-14) for conceiving and executing this so great salvation for so great sinners. Salvation is given to man as a free gift which man neither merits, nor is able to accomplish any work to receive (Rom. 6:23, 5:14-19, Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5). The Bible teaches that God has chosen before the foundation of the world in his sovereignty, which works in perfect harmony with His other attributes such as His omniscience, justice, holiness, love, grace and mercy, those to whom He gives this gift of salvation (Eph. 1:4-6, Rom. 8:28-30, 2Thess. 2:13). This understanding of election is no cause for boasting, but is rather a cause for comfort (Rom. 8:28-30) and praise to God (Eph. 1:3-12, 2Thess. 2:13). The Bible also teaches that God desires that all men be saved (1Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9), and whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom. 10:13). To me, the summation of these two seemingly contradictory thoughts is best described in the loftiness of God’s thoughts and ways above ours (Rom. 11:33-36, Is. 55:8-9, 40:13-14), and the fundamental fact that both truths are clearly taught, as is the truth of our responsibility to share the gospel with all who will hear (Rom. 10:14-6, 1Cor. 9:16, Matt. 28:18-20, 1Cor. 1:17-25). The election of God does not absolve man’s responsibility to accept this gift of God by repenting of his sin and accepting by faith the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior (Lk. 24:47, 2Cor. 7:10, 1Thess. 1:9, Acts 16:31, Rom. 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9, Jn. 5:24). Because salvation is entirely God’s work, security of salvation is also God’s work and is based in His steadfast character and unfailing promise (Jn. 10:27-29, 1Pet. 1:5, Phil. 1:6, Jd. 24). Because man did not gain for himself salvation, he can not lose salvation; for this would place man in a position more powerful than God (1Pet. 1:5, Jn. 6:39-40, Jer. 32:17). Salvation is the beginning of a good work of God known as sanctification (Phil. 1:6, Rom 8:29-30, 1Thess. 5:23, Heb. 13:20-21) which progressively produces a separation from the world (1Jn. 2:15) unto God (1Pet. 1:15-16, 1Jn. 2:5-6) until the day of glorification through death or the rapture (Phil. 3:21, 1Cor. 15:49).

44. Salvation

    These things are those concepts presented in Scripture and to me personally by the Holy Ghost. Not all that I say will be the viewpoint of other LDS.

    There are laws that are eternal and that must be followed for us to have perfect harmony with all things. Or in other words, harmony with nature. Even God follows these principles.

    The most obvious of these principles is that loving others will produce happiness inside. If we hate others we will feel bad inside. If, in hate, we do ill toward others, we have sinned. Any “dark side” feelings we have – anger, lust, hate, vengence, greed, pride etc if acted upon, that action is a sin (1 Jn 3:4 – “the law” meaning the law of Moses [outward actions], Jam 2:8-12). God has given us instructions of the types of actions that are performed by people having these feelings. These are given in the law of Moses, such as killing, adultery, stealing etc. People don’t generally do these actions in love for others.

    When we do such an action, with ill intent, it causes a darkness and muck within us. It also conflicts with our conscience, making us feel pain inside (hell). We will continue to feel this hell until the demands of justice within us feel that we have suffered enough for our sin (this could be an awfully long time depending on the depth of the sin).

    In this sinful state our eternal progression is seriously affected. Our feelings of guilt and this darkness in us make it hard for his Spirit to dwell in us. We need to clear this out as soon as possible to make spiritual progression move along. Thus Heavenly Father has provided us with a Savior.

    So how does Christ suffering and bleeding really free us from our sins? Or is Heavenly Father some kind of weirdo being wanting revenge and bloodshed to appease some major ego problem, as he is often portrayed?

    I’ll try and keep this as brief and as simple as possible. So if anything seems unclear just ask for clarification. God dwells in eternity. We dwell in time. Because Christ used eternity he can suffer for sins of all people in spite of us living at different times (ie he suffered to free Abraham and me also, while in the garden at his time). Christ comes to the truly repentant sinner who’s heart is broken, open and contrite. He suffers for each sin in the garden (as is demonstrated in the sacrifice done for each family individually, in the law given to Moses. These sacrifices are done outside the temple but still within Jerusalem [the camp]). This removes the hell we are feeling as he appeases our consciences by him suffering instead. This brings us back in harmony with the Father, as the guilt is gone. Thus he has, in a sense, pleaded our case for forgiveness and mediated away the problems that stood between us and a good relationship with the Father.

    All have sinned in the PAST (Rom 3:23 – note “all HAVE sinned” not “all are still sinning”). A person still sinning isn’t born again, nor do they know God (1 Jn 2:3-4, 3:6, 3:8, 3:9-10, 5:4, 5:18 and 100s more), and therefore won’t gain eternal life (Jn 17:3). You can become without sin only by putting off following the lusts of the flesh and accept the guidance of the Holy Ghost in all your decisions (Rom 8:4-9).

    There is a circumstance that can exist where a person’s sin can’t be covered by the atonement of Christ (ie Christ can’t atone for them again) (Heb 6:1-6).

    One other aspect to this is the giving of Christ’s life to raise it again, thus making resurrection possible for all. This is symbolised by the sacrifice, for all Israel, that had to be done outside Jerusalem [the camp], in the law of Moses. And this was performed on the cross, outside Jerusalem.

    Thus, through the acts of Jesus Christ, those who truly repent are saved from their sins, and ALL are saved from death by resurrection.

    One other point worth mentioning is that being saved from our sins doesn’t automatically mean a person gets eternal life, by any means. In other words, all getting eternal life must be saved from their sins, but not all being saved from their sins will gain eternal life. We are saved by grace from our past sins if we repent and forsake our sins (“go, and sin no more”). But getting eternal life, or even into the Celestial Kingdom, requires effort. “Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt 7:21). Not only must we help the destitute (Matt 25:31-40), but we MUST also learn the doctrine of that kingdom (Luke 10:38-42). Nextly we must take on the Godly attributes – love, patience, forgiveness, humility, peace, charity, respect for all living beings, parenthood (where possible), mercy, heart judgement, etc.

45. Doug, there are just two more after this (ecclesiology and eschatology)

    Angelology:
    I believe angels are beings created by God (Ps. 148:2-5, Col. 1:16) as spirits which do not ordinarily possess physical bodies (Heb. 1:14, Luke 24:39) but do manifest themselves at times in a physical form (Gen. 19:1-8, Mk. 16:5). They were created higher than man (Heb. 2:7-9) as innumerable (Heb. 12:22, Rev. 5:11) holy beings (Mark 8:38) of great wisdom (2Sam. 14:20, Matt. 28:5) and power (Ps. 103:20, Eph. 1:21) which do not reproduce (Matt. 22:30) or die (Lk. 20:36), but are moral beings, lower than God (Rev. 22:8-9), with the ability to choose to sin (2Pet. 2:4, Jd. 6). They were created to be the messengers and servants of God which minister to God (Is. 6:3, Ps. 103:20, 148:1-2), Christ (Matt. 4:11, Lk. 22:43), and believers (Heb. 1:14); and they will be involved in the rapture (1Thess. 4:16), the second coming of Christ (Matt. 25:31), and the judgment of unbelievers (Rev. 7:1, 8:2).
    I believe that Satan was created as a holy being with all the other angels for the purpose of serving and worshiping God (Ezek. 28:15). But, as Lucifer (Is. 14:12) who had an exalted position in the presence of God (Ezek. 28:14) and who possessed incredible wisdom and beauty (Ezek. 28:17), his heart was lifted up with pride declaring that he would be like the most high God (Is. 14:13-14). In this sin, he was cast from heaven and his exalted position (Ezek. 28:16), making him the originator of sin (Gen. 3:1-6, Jn. 8:44, 1Jn. 3:8) and the arch-enemy of God. Satan is described as our adversary (1Pet. 5:8), the god of this world (2Cor.4:4), and an angel of light (2Cor. 11:14), who, as the enemy of God, opposes His person and every work (Gen. 3:1-6, Matt. 4:1-11, Jn.8:44, 2Cor. 4:4). Satan is already a defeated enemy (1Jn. 3:8, 4:4) whose power is limited by God (Job 1:12, 2:6) and was ruined at the cross (Heb. 2:14, Col. 2:14-15). He will be defeated, judged, and punished by the true God (Rev.20:2-3, 7-10).
    I believe that demons are angels who were created with all of the other angels, but joined in Satan’s rebellion against God (Matt. 25:41, 2Pet. 2:4). Therefore, as a result of their sin, they were cast from heaven (Rev. 12:1-14, 2Pet. 2:4, Jd.6) and presently serve their master, Satan (Matt. 12:24), in opposing the person and work of God in this world (Eph. 6:11-12, Rev. 16:13-16). They are active in inflicting disease (Matt. 9:33, 12:22), deceiving (1Jn. 4:1-4, 1Tim. 3:16-4:3), tempting, and possessing and destroying people (Mk. 5:1-20, 9:17-18, Mat. 9:32, 12:22) and things (Mk. 5:13) to accomplish their work against God. I believe that demon possession is real (Matt. 4:24, 12:22), but can not be true of believers for they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God (1Cor. 6:19-20), and what communion hath light with darkness (2Cor. 6:14-16)? The power of demons was ruined because of the cross (Col. 2:15), and they will be judged and punished with Satan (Matt. 25:41, 2Pet. 2:4).

46. Angels and Satan & Co./The “Darkside”

    I must say that I was wondering how you were going to make much of a subject out of angels, as there isn’t really much to it. But two-thirds of what you have written on angels is on Satan. So I’ll write on the “darkside” also.

    As usual I must give the disclaimer that this is purely my personal opinion as one LDS.

    Angels are of 5 types:- Firstly there is Sarah Gill. Then there are those who have been to earth and are resurrected (such as John the Baptist appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey), those who have been to earth and aren’t yet resurrected (such as Gabriel appearing to Mary), those who are translated (haven’t died yet) (such as Elijah appearing to Christ) and those who haven’t recieved a body at this stage (such as angels appearing to Adam and Eve).

    God sends angels to us to help by giving us ideas for living. He also sends them when he has some special message or for moral support.

    The “Darkside”
    The darkside is that which opposes the eternal laws of happiness. All peoples on all planets have some darkside characters residing there. They help in the process of getting people to make up their minds about what choices to make. God wants everyone to have every opportunity to find our real selves and make our ultimate choices (2 Thess 2:11-12, Matt 24:24).

    As Satan and his followers haven’t got bodies either, they fit in category 5, above, but they don’t get a body at any stage. In spite of referrence to them as angels the Scriptures use the word “devils” to describe them generally. Two-thirds of us decided to come to earth and the other one-third went with Lucifer. They hang around trying to cause us to pursue courses opposite to that which God knows will bring us joy. There’s a lot of rebelious child syndrome. Also Lucifer still has delusions of grandeur.

    They are certainly nothing to fear, they are just our brothers and sisters (from the pre-existence), though they would love you to fear them. Satan’s first ojective, from a religion point of view, is to get people not to believe in God or him. But if that fails then he goes for the “greatly fear me” concept. That way you give him more thought than you do God. The greatest way to combat evil spirits is to actually love and feel sorry for them (not their works, of course).

    They attempt to get us to turn to the “darkside” feelings – fear, anger, hate, vengence, intollerance, lust, pride, greed, apathy, etc. They also use many arguements that sound good if you don’t really think about them – such as evolution. They’ve had thousands of years to perfect their trade. So listenning to the Holy Ghost is required so as not to be deceived.

    In spite of their skills they aren’t highly intelligent. Otherwise they would be following God not running off in their own delusions. We may like to think that evil spirits are intelligent so as to excuse the fact that we have listened to them – “who’s the bigger fool, the fool or the fool that follows the fool?”

    I have seen him several times. In frustration he once attempted to push me out of my head. He isn’t red with horns, a tail and a pitchfolk. He is, in fact, darkness. He is just a male spirit who has serious misperceptions about how to find happiness. The misunderstanding that has existed about him being able to appear as an angel of light is completely false. 2 Cor 11:13 talks of people transforming themselves into apostles, and verse 14 says that Satan also does such transforming. Obviously the above transformation doesn’t refer to people actually changing themsleves physically to look like the apostles? Neither can Satan change himself to look like an angel of light. It is saying that these people and Satan attempt to disguise themselves by CLAIMING to be such (transformation/change of identity). Satan has no light. Christ is the light and the life. Satan couldn’t mimic Christ if his existence depended on it.

    While these spirits refused to go along with God’s idea of us getting a body, they are still keen enough to want to inhabit ours. It is interesting that in spite of God opposing the evil that they do, Christ still demonstrated compassion and love to them in sending them into the swine (even though he knew it wouldn’t last) because they asked him (Matt 8:30-32).

    Some other points of interest:-

    Christ brought 2 angels with him, that were translated men, when he went and talked and ate with Abraham (Gen 18:1-6). They obviously were tranlated as they ate food – which requires a body and no one was resurrected at that point. Afterward he sent these 2 angels to Sodom to tell Lot to leave. Again they obviously were translated as the people regarded them as men to have sex with (Gen 19:1 + 5).

    God sent a large host of angels to comfort Elisha and his servant (2 Kings 6:15-17).

    Heavenly Father needed to send an angel to Christ to give moral support during his suffering for our sins in the garden (Luke 22:43).

47. Ecclesiology:
    I believe the church consists of all those who are believers, having been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ (1Cor. 12:12-13) over which Christ is the head (Eph. 1:22-23, 5:23, Col. 1:18) and ruler of this body whom He loved and gave Himself for (Eph. 5:25). I also believe that the local church (having its beginning on the day of Pentecost [Matt. 16:18, Acts 1:5, 2:1-4, 41-47]) is a collection of believers from the universal body into a local autonomous group (Acts 14:23, 27, 20:17, 28, Gal. 1:2). This local body of believers (Heb. 10:25, 1Thess. 1:1), having identified with Christ through believer’s baptism (Acts 2:41-42), exercises the gifts of the Spirit (Eph. 4:7-16, Rom. 12:5-8, 1Cor. 12:4-31, 1Pet.4:10-11) by working together to accomplish the purposes of the church in the worship of God (Col. 3:16, Eph. 3:21, 5:18-20), the edification of each other (Col. 1:28, Eph. 4:12-13, Heb. 10:25), and the evangelism of the lost world around them (Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:8). The ordinances of the church are believer’s baptism (Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:37-38, 8:35-39, 16:31-34), which I believe to be by immersion as it seems to depict more accurately that work of Christ with which the believer is identifying (Rom. 6:1-10); and the Lord’s Supper which was instituted by Jesus Christ Himself for the purpose of reminding the believer often of the priceless sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ as pictured in the bread and cup. Believers who have examined themselves are invited to partake of these symbols while enjoying precious communion and fellowship with their Lord (1Cor. 11:23-32, Acts 2:42, 1Cor. 10:16). The offices of the local church consist of elders (pastors, bishops [Tit. 1:5-9, 1Tim. 3:1-7, Acts 20:17, 28, Eph. 4:11, 1Pet 5:1-4, Phil. 1:1]) and deacons (1Tim 3:8-13, Phil. 1:1, Acts 6:1-6). The church is loved by God and has been purchased with His own blood (Eph. 5:25, Acts. 20:28), and therefore ought to strive as the body of Christ to be unified (1Cor. 1:10, Phil. 2:2, Eph 4:3, 13, Rom. 16:17-18). This unity must not come at the expense of sacrificing the purity of the church to the world (whose system of thought directly opposes the things of God [1Jn. 2:15-17, 2Cor. 6:14-18, 1Pet. 1:14-16]), to false teachers, (Tit. 1:10-16, 2Tim. 2:17-18, 1Tim. 1:20, 2Jn. 9-11, 2Pet. 2:1), or to disobedient brethren who may need to be disciplined by the church for the purity of the church and the restoration of the erring brother (1Cor. 5, 2Thes. 3:6, 14-15, Matt. 18:15-20).

48. Ecclesiology

    Ecclesiology relative to God is far more than ecclesiology within the church structure. Therefore this is a fuller explanation.

    Relative to members, the church is an organisation where people can be certain of having the correct ordinances done as God would have them. This is important so that the true meaning of symbols can be found (as the symbol is done correctly and with the right words) and so that all necessary ordinances are performed. For new members the church provides a doctrinal beginning. For weak members it provides a continual source of basic instruction. It provides a forum for religious education for families. And it provides social and sporting activities.

    However the church is only where we start our trip to God. And this must be remembered in this examination. Each person must create their own personal relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. That becomes the “church” that is going to matter to each person. Each member must make themselves a prophet of God in their church (whether male or female). They must come to walk and talk with God face to face. And be in tune with the Holy Ghost to obtain direction as required. Then secondly men must create a church of their family and become the prophet of that also. THEN we get to the LDS church.

    To explain this more clearly – some may question why it is that I believe in the church and yet this or that person in authority made this or that mistake. But my belief ISN’T in the church. My belief is in the Godhead. I have failed them, they have never failed me. I have been wrong, but they are ALWAYS right. Yet church leaders will fail. They will get things wrong. D&C 121 makes that extremely clear. But God never will. Christ set up the church as his church for us. So I fully support it and those in positions of responsibility, regardless of their faults.

    My doctrine is that which I have read in the Scriptures, heard at church, but particularly that which God has revealed to me by revelation. So the ecclesiology that is most important to me as an LDS is my priestly position in my personal church to God. God could send me out into the desert for the rest of my life, never to see the church again, and my spirituality wouldn’t be affected in the slightest because God is there too.

    Having made that clear (hopefully) I turn to ecclesiology in the church.

    The church itself isn’t a monarchy with a leader that tells everyone what they will believe about everything in their own personal church. Nor are the local leaders to establish what members will believe. While some local leaders may tend to see themselves this way due to worldly influences (D&C 121:39), it isn’t the way it is intended (D&C 121:37). The church is a theocratic democracy. Thus it is called the Church of Jesus Christ (theocratic) of Latter-Day Saints (democracy).

    Yet there is a responsibility placed upon local leaders to ensure that things stated from the pulpit and by teachers don’t seriously conflict with Scripture (our standards for belief).

    This situation was also demonstrated by the early Apostles, who had varying opinions about doctrine and what commandments to obey. Circumcision and food offered to idols were two of these subjects. While decisions were reached on some subjects, disputes still went on. So there is some degree of flexibility of doctrine and personal feelings on what level of commandments to follow and how. In other words, while it is necessary to obey basic commandments to maintain church membership, there is no actual doctrinal domination beyond extreme basics. This is in harmony with the principle that we are to learn the truth line upon line and precept upon precept, individually.

    The crux is that Christ can only give, the church generally, doctrinal understanding and commandments according to the ability of the Saints to accept and obey those concepts and commandments (D&C 89:3, D&C 119 Heading, Heb 4:2). These general concepts and commandments given to the Saints come through revelation to the President of the Melchizedek Priesthood for the church (termed “The Prophet”). In reality the church should be full of prophets. And there certainly are many in the church. Prophecy is one gift of the Spirit.

    So as far as doctrine goes, while an individual may be able to speak on behalf of God relative to revelation he/she has received on a particular subject, no one can authoritatively speak on behalf of over 13 million people, in regard anything but extremely basic concepts. Beside this point the amount of subjects to cover and knowledge in each required by any one person to be able to do so proficiently, would be beyond comprehension. ie the enormous web of interlocked concepts within the church’s theology and the depth you could go to on so many is virtually endless. Then there would be the problem of passing many immensely deep concepts onto the general membership and having them be able to take it on board. It would be as ridiculous as taking a five year old starting school and getting them to do a doctorate.

    However God has chosen some great individuals to fill the office of “The Prophet” in these latter days. Though it has to be remembered also that if God has an Elijah (similar type person) living today he obviously wouldn’t make him “The Prophet”, as it would be hard to explain a man not dying (for starters). Different people grow by different challenges. So I don’t believe God always chooses the most righteous and knowledgeable person on earth in choosing “The Prophet”. But chooses the most appropriate person available, that wouldn’t be held back by such position.

    There is a quorum of 12 Apostles, who are called to be special witnesses of Jesus Christ. “The Prophet” usually has 2 councillors, who are also Apostles. “The Prophet” is also an Apostle. The church works opposite from the world in that “The Prophet” is at the bottom serving all. Then the 12 Apostles are next up the line, and so on until the general membership, who are at the top, being served the most. The membership all sustain these servants, by raised hand, twice yearly.

    There are 2 priesthoods available at this time. That is the Aaronic Priesthood and the Melchizedek Priesthood. Present offices within the Aaronic Priesthood are deacon, teacher and priest. Present offices within the Melchizedek Priesthood are elder and high priest. As impressive as the latter may sound it is extremely common in the church. Offices generally come by age provided the recipient is worthy.

    The Aaronic Priesthood is organised by the bishop of each “ward” (collection of Saints in a prescribed area). Whereas the Melchizedek Priesthood is organised by the Stake President. A “stake” contains several wards.

    Women don’t receive these priesthoods, as their callings are in a different direction. God has never had any desire to turn women into pseudo men or visa-versa.

    The priesthood is a line of authority to act in the name of Jesus Christ. There are “keys” (automatic right to revelation for an office) associated with callings within the priesthood. That is all that priesthood is. Yet these 2 things are extremely important to running the church.

    There is a power within us that can be used while using the priesthood for healing etc: Sort of like the power in a power cord situation – the cord (priesthood) isn’t the power (electricity) but the power is IN the cord when the power is switched on through personal righteousness and faith.

    Mostly independent of priesthood office there are callings within the church. These are positions of service within the church which I would have to include in a discussion on ecclesiology, as they are part of the administrative structure. There are so many I will just describe each general area.

    There is Relief Society and Young Women’s, Primary for children, Sunday School for all and Priesthood Quorums for men. Sporting, social and education also have administrative structures, usually reporting to the Stake leader. Then there are missions, administered through a different structure from the wards and stake. Also the Church Education System is separate, yet the bishop chooses the actual ward seminary teacher. But all these eventually report to the Apostles, and from there to “The Prophet”. So it is a branched out organisation, not a single line.

49. Eschatology:
    I believe in the imminent return of Jesus Christ to rapture (“caught up” to meet Him in the air) His church to Himself beginning with the resurrected bodies of the dead in Christ and followed by those who are alive and remaining (1Thess. 4:13-18) prior to the tribulation and the millennial return of Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:25, Rev. 3:10, 1Cor. 15:50-53, 1Thess. 1:10, 5:1-10). This rapture of the church and removal of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit upon this world (2Thess. 2:1-12) will then bring about the seven year tribulation. The tribulation is the outpouring of the wrath of God in His judgment on unbelievers (Rev. 6-16, 6:16-17, 14:19, 15:1, 2Thess. 2:12), and the punishment of His people (Israel) to bring them to restoration and fulfill the promises made to them (Lev. 26:44-45, Am. 9:8-15, Acts 1:6, 3:19-26, Jer. 30:7, Dan 12:1, Zech. 13:8-9). During the tribulation time on earth, the believers in Heaven will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) where they will not be judged for their sin, as their sin was judged in Christ on the cross, but rewarded for their actions and deeds done in their body whether good or worthless (Rom. 14:10, 1Cor. 3:9-15, 2Cor. 5:10). The end of the Tribulation will be marked by the return of Jesus Christ with His church to destroy the armies of the Beast set against Him (Rev. 16:13-16, 19:11-21), to cast the Beast and the False Prophet into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20), to cast Satan bound into the bottomless pit for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3), and to set up the millennial kingdom where Christ will sit on the throne of David and rule and reign for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7). At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released for a brief period of time in which he will lead one final rebellion against Christ through his deceptive gathering of people together to battle (Rev.20:7-8). He and his army will be defeated by God, and the Devil will be cast into the lake of fire to be judged for all of eternity (Rev. 20:9-10). At the end of the millennium, the unsaved dead of all ages will be resurrected to stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment where they will be judged according to their works and by the things written in the books (Rev. 20:11-14). Everyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire as the second death and eternal separation from God (Rev. 20:15). After this final judgment, God will make a new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:1-2, 9-27, 22:1-5), the former heaven and earth having passed away (2Pet. 3:10, Rev. 21:1), where all the redeemed of the Lord will dwell in perfect fellowship with God in this perfect dwelling place which God has made for all of eternity (Rev. 21:3-7).

50. Life and Destiny of Man

    I must put the usual disclaimer again and state this as my personal knowledge, based on Scripture and personal revelation, not as a representative for the church.

    I believe the same as you have proposed, exept that I don’t see anything you’ve quoted as coming near to proving a rapture occurring prior to Christ’s second coming, nor some previous judgement. Nor do I see Rev 15:1 as supporting any concept of a seven year period of tribulation.

    Almost all that you have quoted that is correct is in very basic language. So to put it more in Gospelese rather than Law of Mosesese.

    In this life we get the experiences that (with listening to God) teach us how to live to obtain a fullness of joy. We learn that we should live our lives to create good feelings in our spirit rather than being slaves to confusing physical feelings. We learn that lust, greed, anger, hatred etc drag our spirits down. We learn that love, peace, patience, charity etc raise our spirits up to true joy.

    We get an opportunity to have children or help others with theirs. We, therefore, learn how to overcome the challenges of eternal parenting. We create and learn to maintain eternal relationships.

    We learn the challenges that our eternal children will face on their planets and how to deal with those challenges. We learn of good and bad political systems. What set of commandments to give to what type of people. And how to deal with others.

    Naturally all this is learnt from the experts – Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. No person can teach us all these things beyond a basic level.

    When we die our spirits stay here upon the earth and are in one of two general mind states – Paradise or Hell (this first Hell is more commonly known as “Purgatory” by the Catholics – for some reason you Protestants threw this correct concept out [possibly because of the indulgence abuse]). Those in Paradise are those who have accepted the atonement of Christ. Those in this Hell are those who haven’t, and are still suffering for their own sins. Note that the judgement hasn’t occurred at this point. These are purely mind states only. And we are at this time in one of these two states inside.

    This Hell state continues for each person until their own conscience becomes satisfied they have suffered sufficiently for their sin. Ignorance or knowledge play a great part in how much pain is required (Luke 12:47-48). Note also that Luke is presenting the concept of greater or lesser time in Hell (he doesn’t say stripes per day, per week or such, but actual number). This Hell will be continuous and never takes a lunch break, holiday, a sickie etc. However a time will come when the conscience is cleared (justice is satisfied) and a person will no longer be in THIS Hell (yes, even Adolf Hitler will one day have paid). It seems that all will have finished suffering by the time of the judgement (Rev 20:13).

    Many can also be classified as being in “Spirit Prison”. A term referring to a general state of religious ignorance. Those spirits in the Spirit Prison state (who are also in Hell) aren’t actually living elsewhere from those in the Paradise state. Not all those who are in Hell are in a Spirit Prison state, as many know the truth already, but have rejected it. Those who have rejected the truth when preached to them in this life won’t be suddenly inclined to really change their hearts then, in spite of people feeling they would (Alma 34:33-34).

    The gospel is preached to those in a Spirit Prison state by those who have and obey the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The vast majority of the world has never even heard of Jesus Christ, let alone had a chance to accept or reject him and his teachings. God, being a righteous and just God (2 Tim 4:8), must give everyone a chance to hear and accept or reject the truth.

    The spirits of all the dead are here upon the earth and live amongst us. I have seen many of them and they just do whatever they wish to, as we do. Their clothes reflect their time periods.

    At Christ’s second coming there will be a physical resurrection of the bodies of the righteous (though all will be resurrected eventually). On earth there will be a thousand years of peace termed “The Millennium”. The general state of people will be above the present state. Today the world is classified as being in a Telestial state (the lowest state of anything short of darkness)(even in regard that the present world is an extremely poor Telestial Kingdom D&C 76:89). During the millennium the world will be in a Terrestial state (a medium state). So at Christ’s second coming there will be a separation where those who are prepared to accept the atonement of Christ will live and the others will die, unable to live in his presence. This will mean that Telestial and Outer Darkness people will all be dead. Celestials will go with Christ and Terrestials will be the people who continue to live upon the earth (two in the field, one taken, one left Matt 24:40). When the millennium ceases there will be a short time of evil and then the end of this situation will occur. Any not resurrected before this will be then. Then comes the judgement. The earth will then be changed into a state of being Celestial (the higher state, where God dwells), and the meek shall inherit it, while others go elsewhere (Matt 5:5).

    Judgement is done by examination of the things we have written in the book (so to speak) in our mind relative to earthly and spiritual (symbolised by books written in heaven) things we have done. These books are opened (in a sense) and we are judged by whether we have accepted or rejected all the good things that have been placed before us vs the bad things that have been placed before us. So, in a sense, we are judged by all the prophets words we have accepted or rejected (including Joseph Smith’s – as is so often quoted by Protestantism), all the good people etc. So the Saints (perfect and righteous people) who have told us anything, stand as a witness and judge (so to speak) for or against us in judgement (1 Cor 6:2). Jesus Christ is also said to be our judge. Not that he stands there to really judge us, but we are judged by our response to his sayings and the opportunities that he has placed before us (John 12:47-48). As Christ states there in John, judgement is automatic, not a court room process as can be conceived by the way some things are written (for simplicity of comprehension – Law of Mosesese).

    There are those, such as Satan and the one-third who followed him before we came here, that just refuse to do those things that are good and bring true joy. In a sense they continue to shoot themselves in the foot, and will be, therefore, weeping and whaling forever. These spend eternity in what is termed “outer darkness” (2 Pet 2:15-17). It can also be classified as a hell that goes on forever. Also it is referred to as the “Second Death”. Of those who have lived upon the earth there will be very few of these.

    Almost everyone who has come to live here will fit into one of the 3 catageries mentioned above – Celestial, Terrestial and Telestial. The Celestial will have those who have accepted and follow the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those in the Terrestial will be those who follow Christ from a more law of Moses type perspective. Those in the Telestial will be those who did evil and wouldn’t accept the atonement of Christ, yet had never followed the fullness of the gospel to its maximum and then rejected it.

    These separations are because birds of a feather like to flock together. Telestials would feel terribly uncomfortable in the Celestial etc. There will be those who feel they should get the top job without any righteousness being pre-requisite on their part (that they should have been able to get into the Celestial while still sinning) and that quoting the name of the Lord and their good actions are enough. However Christ states that because they have continued to sin they are unable to come in (Matt 7:21-24).

    Heavenly Father’s hope in all this is that as many of his children as possible will gain that job that will give the greatest joy to the individual, and through them to others. And that job is exactly what he is doing. Therefore he is promising us that real LIFE comes in the heart by our state of being and doing. We must come to truly know him to gain eternal life. This doesn’t mean know OF him, but to know him (as it states). As we live the things he teaches us we become more like him. As we become more like him we get to know him more, therefore we live more like he does. And so it grows greater and greater.

    Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have a peace in them that is far beyond imagination: It has to be felt to understand it. They have love, joy, patience and all those good attributes that make for true happiness throughout eternity. Only in being like them can we have this same happiness in us.

51. Todd

    Now that we have concluded the concepts I return to my question of analysis of your expressed belief that we are in the likeness of God. I am still interested in hearing you explain this in some way where I can comprehend your meaning.

52. Todd,
    I see it is nearly a year since your last entry on this thread. So I am not even certain whether you will receive this entry.

    As you may well imagine, I am Doug’s brother.
    I won’t spend long on preambles, however, as I’m not even certain you will get this. Also I am typing directly in; so please excuse any spelling or other errors. I have only read to Doug’s comments to New Year’s day 2008.

    So to that point, I greatly concur with the considerable bulk of what he has said.
    In particular, is he accurate re the individuality of each person’s obedience and ability to receive of the various Gidts of God, including revelation.
    I like his analogy that the Roman Catholic church and some protestant faiths are more like Monarchies, and much in the LDS Church is as democracy. Even those called by God to ‘positions’ in the Church are received via the law of common consent of the members. Hence, it being so vital that we each be in tune with the Spirit of God, and exercise that spirit of inspiration and humility as we vote on ‘proposals’.

    The Holy Ghost, however, being God in the 3rd member, is eternal and witnesses with our spirits the truth of all things such that there can be no mistakes. Therefore, as He testifies to one He will so testify to another. In this way, the doctrine remains pure and we can all become one – til “we all come to a unity of the faith’, as I believe, Paul spoke of among the saints, and as Jesus Himself said: that we ‘become one as He and His Father were one’.

    Now from what Doug has said [obviously each of us learns individually by way of personal revelation and humility. In this way, God is able to teach each one of His children personally, if each will hearken.], that is the first I’ve heard re a “3rd Coming of Christ”, but it would not at all, surprise me; and seems to make some sense on initial thought. I just don’t know personally, of that revelation.
    Also, I see he has said God will continue to progress in love and intelligence: I hadn’t greatly reflected upon that line, and cannot say for certain. However, since we have a scripture that states: “The glory of God is intelligence”, and we know that God does continue to progress in glory, then it might reasonably be concluded that that might be so.
    We do know that growth never stops; God continues to grow forever in Glory, and from one eternal round unto the next, as His number of offspring continues to grow, so does He progress through the progress and glorification of His children in time.

    Now, you asked something very early on about the various offices in the Priesthood.
    From 12 years of age, every worthy male member is able to receive the Priesthood of God.
    However, progress is made through the Priesthood.
    There are 2 major Priesthoods at this time.
    The first is the Priesthood of Aaron; the second the Melchizedek Priesthood.
    Within the Aaronic Priesthood lie 3 progressive offices:
    Deacon, teacher, and priest.
    By age 19, is a young man is worthy he may be eligible to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood.
    For the most part, the first office received in it is that of ‘elder’. In the past, ‘seventies’ have also more generally been called to promote the missionary programme of the Church.

    The other office is that of High Priest. It is an office of Administration. It is normally given when one ids called to serve in the Bishopric or in stake high council or presidency leadership.
    However, unlike the Aaronic, there is no increase re the ordinance authority itself. Any ordinance a high priest can perform, so can an elder, and vice-versa.
    Stakes are generally led by a stake president, who is called of God by an apostle, under direction from the prophet/First Presidency of the Church, and who must also be sustained by common consent.
    I know you will still hold a billion questions, but this might further clarify re LDS.
    As I understand it, official statements of Doctrine must come only from the First Presidency.
    Basically, as Doug said, the four standard works form the backbone of official Church doctrine.
    Nevertheless, We believe, just as in Moses’ time, that the most important prophet is the current one. He will instruct us as a body, what God wills that we should do at this time – especially, as it relates to helping prepare people and the earth, generally, to receive the Saviour at His Coming.
    Local leaders receive inspiration that helps each member as individuals to progress in God’s Kingdom, including the service carried out through various callings of God [via responsibilities] within the Church.
    These prove a wonderful blessing in the life of each member.

53. Todd,

    If Doug does not answer you re the image and likeness of God question you had, and if you are still interested, I will give it a shot for you.

54. Welcome, Denis, to HI4LDS. Feel free to share.

55. Todd, the key to growth in the Church is active service.
    Growth in the Church, more particularly, facilitates one’s growth as a person, and therefore, most importantly, one’s ability and disposition to serve in his/her family and become a better servant in the home – both, to spouse and child, etc. One will also become a better citizen and friend to all.
    The purpose of the Church, as I undersatnd it, is to help each ‘come to a measure of the stature of Christ’, as Paul, the apostle describes.
    The Church exists to help individuals ‘come unto Christ’, and become ‘perfected in Him’, so that we may ultimately become better, happier people – more prepared to receive the Saviour at His Coming, and hopeful of Perfection in the ultimate sense.
    The current prophets and apostles better help us in this preparation and, as each of us has faults, weaknesses or immediate limitations, they and Church service itself help us to focus, or regularly re-focus, our spirituality and orientation for Christlike living.
    We also get to help uplift and re-focus others in the flock. We can be of some inspiration to them, and often directly work in their lives or in those of others’ families, as we are friends with them, or serve them through various Church callings.

    The Priesthood is given that we may have a vehicle to better bless the lives of others – just as Jesus, through the miracles He performed.
    I mentioned, earlier, the Aaronic and Melchizidek Priesthoods:
    The Lesser [or Aaronic] is’progressive’ in that as a deacon, one can perform certain Gospel ordinances (such as, passing the sacrament, receiving fast offerings, watching over the Church, etc. If worthy, one may then progress to become a teacher, wherein he can ALSO prepare the sacrament and assist in teaching the Gospel to members etc.
    A Priest can baptize, bless sacrament, and so forth.
    However, as one then is worthy to receive the Melchizidek Priesthood, he can perform no more Priesthood ordinances as a High Priest than as an elder, though High Priests do more officiating. But their priesthood carries no greater power to bless the lives of others than anyone else holding that greater priesthood.

    As Doug also emphasized, the prime authority on truth is the Holy Ghost.
    A 7 or 8 year-old, influenced by the Holy Ghost, can speak with as much authority on a truthful matter as a 40 yr old.
    The Holy Ghost leads us in all righteousness, and will teach us all truth if we position ourselves and our lives to so receive.
    I will leave it there as it’s getting extremely late here

56. Hi there Todd

    … not quite sure why this came to me about Doug’s post, but in personal comment: Obviously, the pastor  preaching has missed the overall point that Man is in God’s image in Every possible way. We are His children … therefore, we are just like Him … but of course, with a Long way to go in terms of catching up to Dad – in all of His spiritual assets, in terms of knowledge and with reference to a “glorified body”, as your pastor pointed out, is, for us, yet to come. God already has one – just as He has all the other assets that are far beyond ours in their development, likewise. 

    Enjoy … and ask God, your Eternal Father, the source of all truth, about Himself

    – Detroit T

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