I would like to pick up again on this series by interviewing another sister, Ruthie Mogan, in our church family.
Todd: Ruthie, could you share a little about your LDS upbringing? What became the catalyst for your leaving Mormonism? Today, how would you describe your relationship with Jesus Christ? Also, is there anything that you would like to express from your heart to the hearts of readers and those friends whom you mingle with in the LDS community?
Ruthie: Dear Pastor and everyone reading this interview: I was born into a strong Mormon family. My mother’s cousins moved to Swan Valley to escape persecution for practicing polygamy. She was angry at the government until her death in 2004. I attended Primary until I turned 12 and started going to MIA. I served in the nursery as my mom taught primary, and my dad was ward clerk. I also babysat the bishop’s children, participated in girls’ volleyball, The Road Shows, worked at the cannery in downtown LA, was baptized for the dead at least once a month in the LA temple for 4 years, and attended seminary from 6am-7am so we had time to walk to school from the ward.
In 1963 “family home evenings” began. Before that we weren’t home much or together. When I was 16, I dated a young man who became a convert. He went to school, worked 2 jobs after school, and donated his time driving the deacons to pick up fast offerings. When we decided to get married, we were not allowed to marry in the temple, not even walk down the aisle in the chapel at the ward because he was a convert. I thought it odd that the young men who prayed and served the sacrament on Sundays were also hung over from drinking the night before, but they were worthy.
During the 60’s, blacks were not allowed to be LDS, in fact, my aunt wouldn’t even let us play a Bill Cosby cassette tape on her property. When President McKay died, we got a new prophet; and some new revelations changed some things. But the basics stayed the same. If you are a woman then your future is based on the man you marry, his worthiness, and his rule over the family. Your position is based on how many children you have. My mother only had one child, and she grieved her worthlessness her whole life. She compared herself to her sisters, nieces and cousins and felt less than zero, all because she had severe scarlet fever as a child.
When my aunt (whose husband beat her a lot, finally knocked 6 of her teeth out) decided she was done, we moved her and her kids away to a safe place. She received food from the bishops’ warehouse (remembering how I canned weekends for 4 years). But because she didn’t go to church and require her abused children to attend immediately, she was asked to pay for the food. When told of the beatings, my uncle and the other uncles in the family denied any of it. I saw her black-eyes and broken teeth. And my grandparents said she had made her bed and could lay in it. There are a lot of very intellectual comments on this website about doctrine and superficial religion. I learned all that I was taught, but my family experience was very different from the principles I had been told.
Then one Sunday while singing about Jesus – the way, the truth and the life, I looked up at the clock on the side wall of the chapel and realized where His picture was: an 8”x10” below the clock. President David O. McKay’s oil painting was 2ft x 4 ft at the front over the organ. Hmmmm. Why is the Savior treated like an afterthought. This was the moment I began to look outside my ward, my home, my school….And I ventured out into the world.
My marriage lasted only 17 months and I went on to make a living. It wouldn’t be until almost 20 years later, without any time in any church that I connected with a neighbor who invited me to a Christian revival crusade. There I heard the fact that I am a sinner, and that Jesus died for my sin to clothe me in His righteousness and therefore make me clean before God. If I chose His sacrifice for me, then I live for Him, answer to Him, and love Him by learning about Him and His messages to us. Wow, it was just between me and God. And He loves me enough to die for me, loves me enough to let me learn at my speed, loves me through my pain, healing, pride, anger, and selfishness. As I read the Bible, I learned that He created me for His good pleasure. He died to give me life. He is glorified thru my life in Him. He rejoices in just loving me and watching me fall and reach for Him and get up and run with Him. The way dads do here. He loves me, died for me; and I live for Him. And He cares for me as I go through bad days, losses and pain.
But the final tally is this, Jesus’ blood makes me holy, washed me clean and worthy to enter into God’s presence when I die. He is better than Santa Clause. He gives eternal gifts and when we realize the enormity of it, we are blessed with the ability to love Him with all our heart mind and strength. Simple. No big doctrine. No deep in depth Bible study.
And the amazing thing is, God gives us the faith to believe, His Son as the sacrifice for our sin and a home with Him when we die. And if you don’t believe it’s that simple, then tell me what happens “after all that we can do.” If Jesus’ birth, death, and resurrection (remember He is the ONLY man to bring himself back to life) isn’t enough (Alma) then what makes you think your deeds and actions are? And if we are all wrong and there is no God and nothing out there, then I am having a great time being loved by reading His love letters to us in the Word, the Bible. Are you?
Todd: Thanks Ruthie. You and your husband are a tremendous blessing to me and my family. And I am deeply thankful for your witness and caring activity in this community. Okay, readers, here is another real life story straight from the heart. You are free to comment.
Jesus in Idaho Falls 
In 1963 “family home evenings” began. Before that we weren’t home much or together. When I was 16, I dated a young man who became a convert. He went to school, worked 2 jobs after school, and donated his time driving the deacons to pick up fast offerings. When we decided to get married, we were not allowed to marry in the temple, not even walk down the aisle in the chapel at the ward because he was a convert. I thought it odd that the young men who prayed and served the sacrament on Sundays were also hung over from drinking the night before, but they were worthy.
During the 60’s, blacks were not allowed to be LDS, in fact, my aunt wouldn’t even let us play a Bill Cosby cassette tape on her property. When President McKay died, we got a new prophet; and some new revelations changed some things. But the basics stayed the same. If you are a woman then your future is based on the man you marry, his worthiness, and his rule over the family. Your position is based on how many children you have. My mother only had one child, and she grieved her worthlessness her whole life. She compared herself to her sisters, nieces and cousins and felt less than zero, all because she had severe scarlet fever as a child.
Todd, how does it make you feel that this person in your congregation has such a profound misunderstanding of the Church and has left the Church based on it? How does this bode for her stability in your congregation?
I’m sure even you can list most of the errors about the Church’s doctrines and policies found in the selection above.
If I chose His sacrifice for me, then I live for Him, answer to Him, and love Him by learning about Him and His messages to us. Wow, it was just between me and God.
It sounds like you are describing the Mormon understanding of man and woman’s relationship with God so it is confusing that you left the Church. It seems like your reasoning for doing so was that your family was so awful and they claimed to be LDS so therefore the Church must be bad.
And He loves me enough to die for me, loves me enough to let me learn at my speed, loves me through my pain, healing, pride, anger, and selfishness.
Again, there is no distinction in this statement between what you believe and what Latter-day Saints believe. I am sorry your uncles were abusive liars and that your mother had a fundamental misunderstanding of Mormon Doctrine that affected her sense of self worth but I find it astounding that you would charge the Church with these things. Just wait until one of the members of Todd’s congregation is exposed as a wife beater — then what will you do? Because to be fair you should also use it as evidence that the variety of religion that Todd is preaching in his congregation is false since that is what it appears you have done with the Church.
As I read the Bible, I learned that He created me for His good pleasure.
This is true but only part of the picture. God was pleased with his creation of us. But the truth is far grander than merely a higher power creating inferior beings to play around with for his pleasure. Rather, each of us that God has created has the potential to be joint-heirs with Christ of all that God has and thereby to become like God, assisting him eternally in his divine work. This is all very Biblical and avoids the anemic pitfalls of the particular winds of doctrine you have chosen in Todd’s congregation.
He died to give me life. He is glorified thru my life in Him. He rejoices in just loving me and watching me fall and reach for Him and get up and run with Him. The way dads do here.
I do not believe that this statement is supportable in the philosophy/theology that Todd espouses and preaches in his congregation, if this blog can be used as a basis to infer what Todd is preaching at his church.
He loves me, died for me; and I live for Him. And He cares for me as I go through bad days, losses and pain.
This is a very concise, Mormon statement of what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe about their relationship with Jesus Christ. Thank you. It’s wonderful to see that Todd accepts this perspective in his Evangelical creedalist church.
But the final tally is this, Jesus’ blood makes me holy, washed me clean and worthy to enter into God’s presence when I die.
It sounds like you are paraphrasing from the Book of Mormon here. It’s great to see how Mormon belief and doctrine support and complement the doctrine of the Bible, isn’t it?
He gives eternal gifts and when we realize the enormity of it, we are blessed with the ability to love Him with all our heart mind and strength. Simple. No big doctrine. No deep in depth Bible study.
This is another statement that I don’t believe is actually supported by Todd’s brand of religion, particularly the part about no deep in-depth Bible study.
And the amazing thing is, God gives us the faith to believe, His Son as the sacrifice for our sin and a home with Him when we die. And if you don’t believe it’s that simple, then tell me what happens ”after all that we can do.” If Jesus’ birth, death, and resurrection (remember He is the ONLY man to bring himself back to life) isn’t enough (Alma) then what makes you think your deeds and actions are?
Very few Mormons believe that we save ourselves by our own deeds and actions. You appear to have been one of them. From my experience, many or most of those few who actually believe that leave the Church because they somehow never see how Christ-centered the Church is. This is a mystery to those of us Mormons who see Jesus Christ in every aspect of our doctrines and Church life.
And if we are all wrong and there is no God and nothing out there, then I am having a great time being loved by reading His love letters to us in the Word, the Bible. Are you?
Yes. I can answer that for myself and those whom I know very well, and I feel I can answer it confidently on behalf of hundreds of thousands or even millions of active Latter-day Saints as well.
But I will concede that you make one good point: if there is no God then you are probably having more fun in your little congregation than many Latter-day Saints are having in the Church. Since you have a paid pastor who runs the show, you can sit back and be entertained. This is not the case with lay members of the Church who run the show themselves in capacities such as Bishop and counsellors, Relief Society President and counsellors, Elders Quorum President and counsellors, High Priests Group Leader and counsellors, Young Mens President and counsellors, Young Womens President and counsellors, Primary President and counsellors, Sunday School President and counsellors, teachers in each of these auxiliaries, home teachers, visiting teachers, secretaries, and clerks. It’s a lot of work to run the Church at the local level.
Ruthie: If I chose His sacrifice for me, then I live for Him, answer to Him, and love Him by learning about Him and His messages to us. Wow, it was just between me and God.
It sounds like you are describing the Mormon understanding of man and woman’s relationship with God so it is confusing that you left the Church. It seems like your reasoning for doing so was that your family was so awful and they claimed to be LDS so therefore the Church must be bad.
1. First thought, John: can any LDS friends vocalize where they would differ in Bible interpretation with the current prophet or the apostles in any given Sunday service? Christians have the freedom to do so with me. They have done so in our church family discussions on Sundays. Here is the heart issue: how much authority do earthly religious leaders have in mediating positions between God and others?
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Ruthie: And He loves me enough to die for me, loves me enough to let me learn at my speed, loves me through my pain, healing, pride, anger, and selfishness.
Again, there is no distinction in this statement between what you believe and what Latter-day Saints believe. I am sorry your uncles were abusive liars and that your mother had a fundamental misunderstanding of Mormon Doctrine that affected her sense of self worth but I find it astounding that you would charge the Church with these things. Just wait until one of the members of Todd’s congregation is exposed as a wife beater — then what will you do? Because to be fair you should also use it as evidence that the variety of religion that Todd is preaching in his congregation is false since that is what it appears you have done with the Church.
If I did nothing about abuse in my congregation, it would destroy my testimony and trust among the young people. And it would destroy our corporate testimony in Ammon, Idaho, if we did nothing about it. Sinners are sinners, and we can’t afford to disengage. Most importantly, it goes way beyond trying to save the reputation of the church; there must be a passion for God’s glory.
____
Ruthie: As I read the Bible, I learned that He created me for His good pleasure.
This is true but only part of the picture. God was pleased with his creation of us. But the truth is far grander than merely a higher power creating inferior beings to play around with for his pleasure. Rather, each of us that God has created has the potential to be joint-heirs with Christ of all that God has and thereby to become like God, assisting him eternally in his divine work. This is all very Biblical and avoids the anemic pitfalls of the particular winds of doctrine you have chosen in Todd’s congregation.
2. Ahh, another huge division that Ruthie has discovered for herself. Growing up, her religious leaders presented a distinctive blur between the creature and the Creator. Will we ultimately be as the Jehovah in the Isaiah chapters, John? And does the great Jehovah just play around when he makes peace and creates evil in Isaiah 45? Secondly, the grand and exciting part is that she is a “joint-heir with Christ”, all truth ultimately rooted in God’s grace rather than Ruthie’s earthly performance on this earth. To be a joint-heir with Christ and the highest of exaltation, it’s freely given, John.
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Ruthie: He died to give me life. He is glorified thru my life in Him. He rejoices in just loving me and watching me fall and reach for Him and get up and run with Him. The way dads do here.
I do not believe that this statement is supportable in the philosophy/theology that Todd espouses and preaches in his congregation, if this blog can be used as a basis to infer what Todd is preaching at his church.
Are you interpreting Ruthie to mean that God enjoys watching us sin or fall like in the garden of Eden? That the fall in the garden of Eden is a step upward? Is that the same as enjoying watching our children learn to walk?
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Ruthie: He loves me, died for me; and I live for Him. And He cares for me as I go through bad days, losses and pain.
This is a very concise, Mormon statement of what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe about their relationship with Jesus Christ. Thank you. It’s wonderful to see that Todd accepts this perspective in his Evangelical creedalist church.
3. Unconditional love – this is another good topic to pursue. Would you accept this statement? God loves me right now to the greatest degree that he will ever love me. And that this love is unchanging.
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Ruthie: But the final tally is this, Jesus’ blood makes me holy, washed me clean and worthy to enter into God’s presence when I die.
It sounds like you are paraphrasing from the Book of Mormon here. It’s great to see how Mormon belief and doctrine support and complement the doctrine of the Bible, isn’t it?
4. What is your theory of the atonement? Doctrine of imputation of righteousness? Complete exchange of sin for God’s worthiness?
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Ruthie: He gives eternal gifts and when we realize the enormity of it, we are blessed with the ability to love Him with all our heart mind and strength. Simple. No big doctrine. No deep in depth Bible study.
This is another statement that I don’t believe is actually supported by Todd’s brand of religion, particularly the part about no deep in-depth Bible study.
5. Excellent topic – At what age does your religion allow a child to be baptized? And at what age do you think a child can fully understand the fundamentals of the gospel? We have two deacons serving who were saved by Jesus Christ at the age of four/five. And can the entirety of your gospel be explained in just a minute or two?
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Ruthie: And the amazing thing is, God gives us the faith to believe, His Son as the sacrifice for our sin and a home with Him when we die. And if you don’t believe it’s that simple, then tell me what happens ”after all that we can do.” If Jesus’ birth, death, and resurrection (remember He is the ONLY man to bring himself back to life) isn’t enough (Alma) then what makes you think your deeds and actions are?
Very few Mormons believe that we save ourselves by our own deeds and actions. You appear to have been one of them. From my experience, many or most of those few who actually believe that leave the Church because they somehow never see how Christ-centered the Church is. This is a mystery to those of us Mormons who see Jesus Christ in every aspect of our doctrines and Church life.
6. Devout LDS friends, do not think that Ruthie will literally dwell in the presence of the Son in the celestial home of glory. Why not? If she is trusting fully upon the Son?
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John: But I will concede that you make one good point: if there is no God then you are probably having more fun in your little congregation than many Latter-day Saints are having in the Church. Since you have a paid pastor who runs the show, you can sit back and be entertained. This is not the case with lay members of the Church who run the show themselves in capacities such as Bishop and counsellors, Relief Society President and counsellors, Elders Quorum President and counsellors, High Priests Group Leader and counsellors, Young Mens President and counsellors, Young Womens President and counsellors, Primary President and counsellors, Sunday School President and counsellors, teachers in each of these auxiliaries, home teachers, visiting teachers, secretaries, and clerks. It’s a lot of work to run the Church at the local level.
I am chuckling. You have clearly spelled out the charge that this little church family continually faces in strong judgment by the dominant LDS community. It would be fun to talk more about this community misrepresentation that we face on a regular basis.
You need to come visit, John. I am all about bucking the contemporary evangelical show.
And you will also meet some tremendous lay servants, one of those being Ruthie, an awesome lay secretary among the sisters. She is not a sitter. Far from it.
Is the Book of Mormon what it claims to be? The LDS faith rests on two things; the first, is that the Book of Mormon is a true testament to Jesus’ visit to the Americas, and the second is that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Here we’ ll deal with the first question. See the PDF and decide.